Some Catholic bloggers are calling out other Catholics on their actions (or should I say faith)

[Joe_5859]

Why is that? How is it different? Not being confrontational, just want to understand this double standard.

~Liza

Not a problem. I was being a bit glib because I like to add a touch of humor when I feel like my posts are getting too serious.

But since you raise the point, my initial response would be to say that the bishops, as our shepherds and successors to the apostles, deserve more from us in this regard. Perhaps I need to reflect more on the issue, though. I do sort of live in the tension between the need to shed light on the darkness and the need to give people the benefit of the doubt. That’s why I enjoy these types of discussions. They help clarify things for me.

 

[lizaanne]

But since you raise the point, my initial response would be to say that the bishops, as our shepherds and successors to the apostles, deserve more from us in this regard.

Don’t you think that because of this very position they hold, that they should be held to an even higher standard than the politician? They hold souls in their hands, not votes. Yes of course, the assumption is always that they are a good Bishop - but if the fruits of their labors don’t bear this out then why is it wrong to expect that they DO live at the higher standard than the common man?

~Liza

 

[pnewton]

Don’t you think that because of this very position they hold, that they should be held to an even higher standard than the politician? ~Liza

Without a doubt, God does.

 

[Joe_5859]

Don’t you think that because of this very position they hold, that they should be held to an even higher standard than the politician? They hold souls in their hands, not votes. Yes of course, the assumption is always that they are a good Bishop - but if the fruits of their labors don’t bear this out then why is it wrong to expect that they DO live at the higher standard than the common man?

~Liza

Fair enough. As pnewton said, God will certainly hold them to a higher standard. I guess I’m still working out where that leaves us lay people in that process.

Not to get the thread more off topic, but just to illustrate where I’m at, the example I’ve been thinking of is the video circulating of Archbishop Dolan allegedly giving a metaphorical fist bump to the GLBT group at St. Francis Xavier parish in NY. Dolan took a lot of flak for that, which I don’t think was warranted. I can think of several other reasonable explanations that I consider far more likely as to why he behaved as he did in that video.

In light of the backlash from the Catholic blogosphere for that one video, I see people operating under the assumption Dolan is one of those liberal heterodox and/or cowardly wimpy bishops. The insinuation of many has been that Dolan does not adhere to the Church’s teaching on homosexuality. That’s simply false. He has spoken out against gay marriage. He told one of his parishes that they could not use the parish name in the gay pride march. He has spoken out against abortion. He was one of the bishops who criticized Notre Dame for inviting Obama to speak there. Every news source (secular and Catholic) I’ve seen (besides the blogs) labels him as a conservative.

I apologize for being long-winded, but I use this to illustrate my point that I think we need to be very careful about assuming the worst intentions. Dolan’s reputation has been damaged, and I don’t think it is deservedly so. If the sum total of Dolan’s actions conclusively showed that he rejects Catholic moral teaching, then there would be a legitimate basis for critique. But I’m fairly certain he would be the first to say that he absolutely backs the Church’s teaching on homosexuality.

For me, I think less damage would be done if we restrained ourselves from speaking until we were absolutely certain that a bishop was teaching heresy. And even then, I would only mention it to those who needed to know (because they live in that diocese, are contemplating buying one of his books, etc.). I think it is more beneficial to simply propose the authentic Catholic teaching than to get into finger pointing.

 

[pnewton]

Joe 5859,

Your last post brought to my mind the Gospel of this last Sunday where it Pharisee and the tax collector both prayed. Seldom has a parable hit closer to a topic here. The Pharisee was doing everything right in accord to his religious beliefs; orthodox. The tax collector was a grave sinner; heterodox. We here need always remember that it is only by God’s grace that we have any goodness at all. We are in no position to judge the path others have taken and why they may be in a life style of mortal sin. Yet note that the tax collector did go to the temple when convicted of his sinfulness. What would be his options if the Pharisees of his day had ran him out of the faith by smearing him through the blogosphere? He would be lost.

So the question that comes to mine when we turn on our fellow Catholics that are logging far behind us in piety, what is best for their soul? Bishops and priests sometimes answer this with pastoral restraint. This does not make them dissident. It make them Christlike, who Himself was considered a dissident by His religious leaders. There is a time for excommunication, and there is a time for restraint. If one reads Paul on the Church discipline, this is done by the Church - the presbyters. I guess that is why I am uncomfortable with the sort of ministry that this article speaks of.

 

[gakroeger]

Joe 5859,
Your last post brought to my mind the Gospel of this last Sunday where it Pharisee and the tax collector both prayed. Seldom has a parable hit closer to a topic here. The Pharisee was doing everything right in accord to his religious beliefs; orthodox. The tax collector was a grave sinner; heterodox. We here need always remember that it is only by God’s grace that we have any goodness at all. We are in no position to judge the path others have taken and why they may be in a life style of mortal sin. Yet note that the tax collector did go to the temple when convicted of his sinfulness. What would be his options if the Pharisees of his day had ran him out of the faith by smearing him through the blogosphere? He would be lost.

So the question that comes to mine when we turn on our fellow Catholics that are logging far behind us in piety, what is best for their soul? Bishops and priests sometimes answer this with pastoral restraint. This does not make them dissident. It make them Christ like, who Himself was considered a dissident by His religious leaders. There is a time for excommunication, and there is a time for restraint. If one reads Paul on the Church discipline, this is done by the Church - the presbyters. I guess that is why I am uncomfortable with the sort of ministry that this article speaks of.

While I certainly agree with the Gospel of this Sunday, I do not agree with your application of it to the situation discussed on this thread (statement in bold). This Gospel is teaching how humbly we must approach God. The tax collector is recognizing his faults and is sorry for them, the Pharisee is not. Almost the opposite of how you assigned the people in this discussion to the Gospel. Those not following the magisterium in this discussion have not acknowledged their sinfulness, those on the other side may or may not be acknowledging their sinfulness, but they are following Christ’s teaching in explaining the error in not following Church teaching. Hopefully, all individuals on this thread are condemning the sin and not the sinner.

Also, there seems to be a fallacy in your statement in the second paragraph (again in bold). It does not make them dissident; it makes them Christ-like? And then you state Christ was a dissident? Isn’t this contradictory? It appears to be a good argument for the bloggers we are discussing. They are dissidents like Christ?

 

[Joe_5859]

There is a time for excommunication, and there is a time for restraint. If one reads Paul on the Church discipline, this is done by the Church - the presbyters. I guess that is why I am uncomfortable with the sort of ministry that this article speaks of.

I liked your parallel, pnewton. This is what I always go back to. If blunt confrontations and abundant excommunications (for the sake of avoiding scandal) were the best methods of saving souls, why do our pastors not take that route more frequently? Certainly, there are times where such actions are necessary, but they are usually a last resort, not a first one.

 

[FAB]

Has anybody else seen this AP story?

rr.com/news/topic/article/rr/9001/24864528/Catholic_bloggers_aim_to_purge_dissenters

Are Catholics who uphold the teachings of the Church being considered a fringe group? I hope this thread turns out well; this is the first time I included a link in a thread. I wanted to get your thoughts on this article. Thanks and God bless.

When you see a story like this, remember the AP is no friend to the Catholic church and anything that that can find that shows division in the Church, they will promote. This is though an indication for all the faithful. Tread carefully in your words and actions. There are many issues that can be discussed in a civil mannor, but the bottom line in that we are still all Catholics. None of us has the particular right to decided what a real Catholic is. Yes there are those, polls show that on any issue at least 50% believe something other than the Catholic doctrine, who do not always follow as they should. Yet these are still our brothers and sisters in Christ and need to be treated as such. It is by actions and our works that show what it means to be Catholic, not condemnation.
Much of the condemation on this site and others like Real Catholic TV, are questioning the practice of our preist and bishops. This is a very troubling trend since it underminds their authority which come from the chair of Peter, that comes from Christ. All Catholics should keep this in mind before the proceed to question the actions of these our shepherds. Such actions also reinforce the impression that AP reported on, that we are church divided. When the Pope is working on so many fronts for reunification, we as the faithful should do the same.

 

[Joe_5859]

Going back to the OP, I found another blog piece on the AP article. This one is from First Things Elizabeth “The Anchoress” Scalia:

firstthings.com/blogs/theanchoress/2010/10/26/catholic-blogs-charity/

 

[pnewton]

Also, there seems to be a fallacy in your statement in the second paragraph (again in bold). It does not make them dissident; it makes them Christ-like? And then you state Christ was a dissident? Isn’t this contradictory?

No, because Jesus did dissent from the teaching of the Pharisees. He saw the moral principles in the Law and disobeyed those rules when they conflicted with God’s moral law. Examples are healing on the Sabbath, harvesting grain on the Sabbath, the Corban Law, eating with the unclean, stopping the stoning of the woman in adultery, talking to the Samaritan woman.

The thing about application of a Scripture is that one can either take it or leave it. It is not an interpretation. I see this parable as a good guide. If you do not, that is your business.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Some lost souls are in such pain and have such cold and closed hearts they simply reject the Eternal Truths and falsely claim lack of charity, but remember, like Fr. John Corapi says, “It is not Charitable to condone one sins”.

Well…if we are quoting Fr. Corapi…he also starts out with saying it MUST always be done in love. And then he repeats himself about IN LOVE. So, I guess that’s the piece that I see missing from a lot of people calling out other Catholics. IMHO

 

[pnewton]

Well…if we are quoting Fr. Corapi…he also starts out with saying it MUST always be done in love. And then he repeats himself about IN LOVE. So, I guess that’s the piece that I see missing from a lot of people calling out other Catholics. IMHO

Something I find interesting about Fr. Corapi. He pulls no punches when it comes to sin. I haved listened to him for hours on end. Yet even though he is a priest with a charism for preaching, I do not recall him once naming names.

 

[gakroeger]

No, because Jesus did dissent from the teaching of the Pharisees. He saw the moral principles in the Law and disobeyed those rules when they conflicted with God’s moral law. Examples are healing on the Sabbath, harvesting grain on the Sabbath, the Corban Law, eating with the unclean, stopping the stoning of the woman in adultery, talking to the Samaritan woman.

The thing about application of a Scripture is that one can either take it or leave it. It is not an interpretation. I see this parable as a good guide. If you do not, that is your business.

I did not question whether Christ dissented, we agree he did dissent the teaching of the temple leaders. The issue is that you indicated that the Pastors and bishops (who do not speak out) were not dissents, they were being Christ-Like (by restraining themselves), then you turn around and say Christ was a dissendent (not like the Pastors and bishops).

 

[gakroeger]

When you see a story like this, remember the AP is no friend to the Catholic church and anything that that can find that shows division in the Church, they will promote. This is though an indication for all the faithful. Tread carefully in your words and actions. There are many issues that can be discussed in a civil mannor, but the bottom line in that we are still all Catholics. None of us has the particular right to decided what a real Catholic is. Yes there are those, polls show that on any issue at least 50% believe something other than the Catholic doctrine, who do not always follow as they should. Yet these are still our brothers and sisters in Christ and need to be treated as such. It is by actions and our works that show what it means to be Catholic, not condemnation.

Much of the condemation on this site and others like Real Catholic TV, are questioning the practice of our preist and bishops. This is a very troubling trend since it underminds their authority which come from the chair of Peter, that comes from Christ. All Catholics should keep this in mind before the proceed to question the actions of these our shepherds. Such actions also reinforce the impression that AP reported on, that we are church divided. When the Pope is working on so many fronts for reunification, we as the faithful should do the same.

The authority of the priests and bishops only comes from Christ when the priest and bishops are teaching according to the magisterium, when they deviate from the magisterium it is called heresy.

Yes, we all must be very careful when we (as some on this thread refer to it “calling them out”); are duty bound to point out errors in Catholic teaching whether it be by a Catholic politician or a Catholic Priest or Bishop. However, as someone else pointed out on this thread, we should follow Father Corapi’s example and point out the offense without condemning the offender. They could be making an honest mistake. However, again, we are duty bound to point out the error. There are many who keep pointing to charity in their objections to pointing out error. They should read Pope Benedicts encyclical Caritas In Veritate (Charity in Truth). It can be found here:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html

The Pope very clearly tells us that Charity without truth (using charity to avoid speaking out) does not eliminate our duty to spread the Good News and to challenge heresy where ever it exists.

Those who want everything to be nice and confortable and sit back quietly and just get along, are not following Christ who as has been pointed out was not sitting quietly by in His time on earth.

Our Church history is not one of quiet agreement; the early Church Fathers also had to fight heresy. We are no different.

 

[pnewton]

However, as someone else pointed out on this thread, we should follow Father Corapi’s example and point out the offense without condemning the offender.

Actually, what I said is he doesn’t** name** the offenders and I added the caveat that this was true to the extent I have heard him. If I am mistaken, I am sure someone here will provide an example.

 

[gakroeger]

Actually, what I said is he doesn’t** name** the offenders and I added the caveat that this was true to the extent I have heard him. If I am mistaken, I am sure someone here will provide an example.

I am not sure why you are taking exception to the way I stated the requirement to condemn the sin and not the sinner. Your statement that Fr Corapi does not focus on the precise individual but on the error it correct. Although I have heard him name names in some of his talks, he always focuses on the sin and not the sinner. On other occasions when he is speaking of a particular politician, he leaves no doubt about who he is talking about even though he does not mention the name. He does this frequently with Obama by referring to the office and not the individual…

 

[FAB]

The authority of the priests and bishops only comes from Christ when the priest and bishops are teaching according to the magisterium, when they deviate from the magisterium it is called heresy.

The issue is that too many people are assuming that our preist and bishops are not teaching according to the magisterium and they are the ones committing the heresy.
To become a priest it is a min of 8 years of siminary in most cases. Bishops are appointed by the pope after years of service as a priest. But yet there are those with very little education in all the subjects of the church, presume they are more qualified than these men call to the Lord’s service to make comment and critique their work.
I see post after post on CAF which attacks what is precieved as abuses of the liturgy, critiques on priest and bishops, and gangs of others perfecting willing to pile on. Often time in error. The 100’s of post which rail against the Second Vatican Council, which is teaching of the magisterium, or rail against the ordinary form of the mass, all these are do not resolve issues, but only cause problems, divisions and worse doubt in minds of the faithful who often do not understand the workings of the Church.
These bloggers and other sites have their own agendas, which are out of step with the Church’s.

 

[gakroeger]

The issue is that too many people are assuming that our preist and bishops are not teaching according to the magisterium and they are the ones committing the heresy.
To become a priest it is a min of 8 years of siminary in most cases. Bishops are appointed by the pope after years of service as a priest. But yet there are those with very little education in all the subjects of the church, presume they are more qualified than these men call to the Lord’s service to make comment and critique their work.
I see post after post on CAF which attacks what is precieved as abuses of the liturgy, critiques on priest and bishops, and gangs of others perfecting willing to pile on. Often time in error. The 100’s of post which rail against the Second Vatican Council, which is teaching of the magisterium, or rail against the ordinary form of the mass, all these are do not resolve issues, but only cause problems, divisions and worse doubt in minds of the faithful who often do not understand the workings of the Church.
These bloggers and other sites have their own agendas, which are out of step with the Church’s.

Of course there are abuses, this is an imperfect world, there are many websites by individuals calling themselves Catholic that extol practices that are clearly against Catholic teaching, however; you seem to be using the exceptions to justify silence on the legitimate challenges to very clear violations of Church teaching. It is every Catholic’s duty to learn their faith as taught by the Magisterium. This thread is not supporting challenges to legitimate positions expressed by Priests and Bishops. It is attempting to encourage faithful Catholics to practice their faith. It is well known and accepted that there are many priests and bishops (very few bishops but many priests) who not only soft peddle the issue of contraception and abortion but in many cases even support it. This cannot stand unchallenged; the negative effect on the souls of those subscribing to their heretical teaching is too serious. Father Corapi often confronts this issue with priests and bishops in his preaching. He tells many stories of personal knowledge of his encounters with these heretics. Unfortunately, priests and bishops are human like the rest of us and sometimes their exposure to the liberal mindsets in our universities warps their understanding of the truth. We must pray for them AND expose the lies so the faithful are not scandalized and begin to accept the lie.

 

[Joe_5859]

The issue is that too many people are assuming that our preist and bishops are not teaching according to the magisterium and they are the ones committing the heresy.

When the Dolan thing hit the internet, one of my friends posted the video on Facebook. This is one of the comments from another friend that I think succinctly sums up what I have been trying to say for many posts:

If you disagree with +Dolan, you should write to him, privately, to address the issue. But before you do that, you should remember that he has 40+ years of pastoral experience and was selected by the Holy Father personally to lead a very public diocese. So you might consider very carefully and prayerfully who is right about pastoral ministry in the Archdiocese of New York: you, or the archbishop of New York.

In our age of instant communication and a legion of news sources, I think it is often easy for us to assume we have all the facts when we do not. And, of course, those same means of social communications allow us to react instantly to information without careful consideration and due reflection.

We should lament saying something negative about a particular bishop. We should be certain that we are speaking from complete and accurate information (which you most likely will only have if you personally know the parties involved). And, taking our lead from CCC 2477, we should only disclose such faults if there is an objectively valid reason to do so. And we should not lightly assume that there is an objectively valid reason. Much prayer and thought should go into it.

I can’t think of any valid reason for me to know the faults of a bishop, especially one from another diocese. Even if someone approached me with a skewed view of Catholic teaching with the justification that “Bishop So-And-So said that such-and-such was what Catholics really believe,” my response would be to articulate the authentic Catholic teaching, not to hurl accusations at the bishop. In logic it’s called an ad hominem to attack the source of the argument rather than the argument itself. In addition, I would bend over backwards to illustrate that the person is misunderstanding the bishop rather than assume they are correctly characterizing his remarks.

 

[FAB]

Of course there are abuses, this is an imperfect world, there are many websites by individuals calling themselves Catholic that extol practices that are clearly against Catholic teaching, however; you seem to be using the exceptions to justify silence on the legitimate challenges to very clear violations of Church teaching. It is every Catholic’s duty to learn their faith as taught by the Magisterium.

The issue is that many on these sites do not fully know or understand Catholic Teaching. Our primary teachers of the faith is the local ordinary. The term Magisterium referes to the College of Bishops which the local ordiary participates, not some obtuse office in the Vatican passing out doctrine.

It is well known and accepted that there are many priests and bishops (very few bishops but many priests) who not only soft peddle the issue of contraception and abortion but in many cases even support it. This cannot stand unchallenged; the negative effect on the souls of those subscribing to their heretical teaching is too serious.

Can you show any statistics that show this is the case? It is fine and appropriate for sites to promote Natural Family Planning and to stand against abortion, but to blame the fact that Catholics don’t follow these teachings because of our priest, were is the connection?
The site also should be promting all the Church’s social justice teaching’s.

Father Corapi often confronts this issue with priests and bishops in his preaching. He tells many stories of personal knowledge of his encounters with these heretics.

I don’t oftten listen to Fr, Corapi, I trust that what he teaches comes from Vastican II. Personal stories are just that, they do not reflect what is happening universally. He also approaches issues from a certain veiw point, but he is not the final or highest authority.

Unfortunately, priests and bishops are human like the rest of us and sometimes their exposure to the liberal mindsets in our universities warps their understanding of the truth. We must pray for them AND expose the lies so the faithful are not scandalized and begin to accept the lie.

You once again make an assumption which is not supportable. Terms like liberal or progressive are terms that are thown out to paint anything a traditionalist doesn’t like as wrong. On many of these post and sites the truth of what is Catholic teaching is often corrupted. They are often the ones promoting mistruths and are scandalizing the faith, by leading people away from listening to shepherds of the Church.