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Tom
Guest
If I could have protected my mother from all sin, to include original sin, I certainly would have. The difference (and it’s the only difference, I swear… LOL)… between me and God is He could.
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rom323
Guest
adstrinity said:
Prayer is a form of worship to be directed to GOD ALONE! Your prayers to Mary will be unheard and unanswered!
Don’t you see how you have elevated a mere creature to a status reserved to God Alone? The God you serve must be quite small!
L
Lorarose
Guest
I have been heard and I have been answered in very profound ways.
I’m sure many catholics here would say the same.
Don’t you see how you ignore the responsed you’ve received?
Why are you filled with hatred for catholics?
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adstrinity
Guest
I did not compare Mary to God. I did not elevate her to His status. I prayed to her last night (technically this morning) and, my prayers have already been answered.
She is good about that…so is St. Anthony, but, that’s not what this thread is about. Anyway, you were much more reserved & plesant in your response than I thought you would have been, so, perhaps she asked God to soften your heart a bit, I don’t know. I will remember you in my prayers tonight again…oh heck, I’ll say the Rosary again because of its success rate.The God I serve is not at all small. The God I worship is the Holy Spirit which guides the One Holy Catholic & Apostolic church. The God I worship is the Christ who is the Host in the Eucharist throughout the day EVERY day. The God I worship is the Father who started EVERYTHING and created all out of nothing. The God I worship is the Father of Abraham & Issac, the one who made kings of His people and prophets proclaiming His comming and Apostles to start off His Church. In short,
I believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through Him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
He came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered death and was buried.
On the third day He rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son
With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.
The God I worship is all encompassing and omniscient enough to decide at Genesis 3:15 that He will choose Mary to birth Him to save the world. The God I worship is big enough that, though an Augustinian monk, in 1517 decided to rebell against His Church, causing a domino effect of others to break away, He still loves them ALL and still keeps SOME of His truth revealed so that more may be saved.
The God I serve is not at all small. The God I serve decided that He will set up His Church so that there will be a Communion of Saints so that I may pray for those for whom I wish to pray directly to Him AND using His saints, who are with Him in Heaven and can pray perfectly without being distracted, when He could have damned us all to Hell. …He can do that…He is just that big.
Now, as for answering some other Protestants or those who have reserves about Mary here, I was once in your shoes. “HOW could God have preseved Mary from sin? Wouldn’t He have to preseve Sts. Anne & Joachim from sin as well to make Mary sinless? And, if THEY were made sinless, wouldn’t this have to be traced back to the first people?” And, right there, we have just rendered Christianity useless, so, no. It’s just something God can do. Moment sperm penetrated egg, a perfect being was created. The funny thing is, and, I don’t know if this was mentioned before, but, the Reformists believed that Mary was Perpetually a virgin and w/o sin as well. Luther was a big defendant of this.
A
adstrinity
Guest
bajolyn,
Hi
Something else that may eventually be a stumbling block, but, after it was explained to me, helped me out (I am a convert to the Catholic faith. I was raised Congregationalist, went to a Full Gospel school for some of my jr. high experience, then a Dutch Reformed for some of my high school, so, I know how difficult it is to have these questions plaguing one’s mind). This is what I posted in the other reply I posted, but, this part made it too long and unpostable.
AND, IF anybody is having trouble with the concept that Mary is in Heaven right now, complete with body, this is what helped me with that: You know how Catholics are concerning saints and relics, right? We keep track of where our saints are burried & such, right? We have relics of saints kept in our churches & cathedrals, right? …We have NOTHING of Mary. Now, knowing how Catholics are about REGULAR saints (Peter, Paul, Andrew, Patrick, Augustine, Elisabeth Seton, Francis…), don’t you think that the early Church ESPECIALLY would have kept holy the burrial place of The Sinless Vessel which brought our Saviour into this world? …And yet, there is no tomb, no grave, no burrial place mentioned ANYWHERE. Did she even die? I think this is still debated w/in the Church. It is food for thought when one actually thinks about these things…
I shall pray for you.
GOD BLESS YOU!!!
Hi
Something else that may eventually be a stumbling block, but, after it was explained to me, helped me out (I am a convert to the Catholic faith. I was raised Congregationalist, went to a Full Gospel school for some of my jr. high experience, then a Dutch Reformed for some of my high school, so, I know how difficult it is to have these questions plaguing one’s mind). This is what I posted in the other reply I posted, but, this part made it too long and unpostable.
AND, IF anybody is having trouble with the concept that Mary is in Heaven right now, complete with body, this is what helped me with that: You know how Catholics are concerning saints and relics, right? We keep track of where our saints are burried & such, right? We have relics of saints kept in our churches & cathedrals, right? …We have NOTHING of Mary. Now, knowing how Catholics are about REGULAR saints (Peter, Paul, Andrew, Patrick, Augustine, Elisabeth Seton, Francis…), don’t you think that the early Church ESPECIALLY would have kept holy the burrial place of The Sinless Vessel which brought our Saviour into this world? …And yet, there is no tomb, no grave, no burrial place mentioned ANYWHERE. Did she even die? I think this is still debated w/in the Church. It is food for thought when one actually thinks about these things…
I shall pray for you.
GOD BLESS YOU!!!
A
adstrinity
Guest
ARRRGGGH!!!
I was just thinking about this. It’s been maybe less than an hour since my post &, I don’t serve a different God than you do, uhhh, checks for who this is a reply to rom323. We serve the same God, and, though it would be easy for me to say mean things in an antagonizing & provoking manner, I shant. But, I want you to know this, your tactic worked in ruffling my feathers enough so that I further caused a division in my explination causing the truth to come out as haughty. I apologise. I pray that you see the truth in what I have stated rather than HOW I phrased it. I’m sorry. We DO worship the same God…REMEMBER THAT!!! Re-read the Nicean Creed & you will see that I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I apologise, and, it looks like I’ll be looking to other saints this morning to pray for me in how to treat other people and my quick actions.
God bless you & Mary keep you. 
I was just thinking about this. It’s been maybe less than an hour since my post &, I don’t serve a different God than you do, uhhh, checks for who this is a reply to rom323. We serve the same God, and, though it would be easy for me to say mean things in an antagonizing & provoking manner, I shant. But, I want you to know this, your tactic worked in ruffling my feathers enough so that I further caused a division in my explination causing the truth to come out as haughty. I apologise. I pray that you see the truth in what I have stated rather than HOW I phrased it. I’m sorry. We DO worship the same God…REMEMBER THAT!!! Re-read the Nicean Creed & you will see that I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I apologise, and, it looks like I’ll be looking to other saints this morning to pray for me in how to treat other people and my quick actions.
God bless you & Mary keep you.
M
mercygate
Guest
I’m another Convert here who struggled with Mary. For me, the door was also opened via the Assumption. If it could happen to Elijah, why not to Mary? The Immaculate Conception took longer. But Holy Elijah’s firey chariot was the key for me.bajolyn,
Hi
Something else that may eventually be a stumbling block, but, after it was explained to me, helped me out (I am a convert to the Catholic faith. I was raised Congregationalist, went to a Full Gospel school for some of my jr. high experience, then a Dutch Reformed for some of my high school, so, I know how difficult it is to have these questions plaguing one’s mind). . . .
GOD BLESS YOU!!!
P
prodromos
Guest
Sorry, but …
http://travel.u.nu/pic/il/6509.jpg
Church of the Dormition of Mary in Jerusalem
built over her tomb.
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mercygate
Guest
I understand there are other claimed tombs of Mary. But there’s nobody in 'em. The tradition is not that there be no tomb. Jesus had a tomb.
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jimmy
Guest
How do you know it is built over her tomb? When was the church built?
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prodromos
Guest
Actually this isn’t built over the tomb. My mistake. The church built over her tomb is on the Mount of Olives
russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news04/dormition.html
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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adstrinity
Guest
Prodromos,
Thank you for that!! Have yet to check out the link, but, it’s good to know this.
Thank you for that!! Have yet to check out the link, but, it’s good to know this.
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adstrinity
Guest
Just checked out the link. How beautiful!! Wow! The place looks nice. I never knew Mary actually HAD a tomb. I just always thought that she was asumed into Heaven before there was time for her to place her in one. However, it looks like the tomb is empty, is this what the Orthodox believe as well?
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SFH
Guest
The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross was necessary for the Blessed Virgin’s salvation as it was necessary for all men’s salvation.
The Blessed Virgin received the fruits of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross prior to the actual sacrifice. Herein lies the substance of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. In other words, God preserved the Blessed Virgin free from sin from the moment of her conception in light of her Son’s future sacrifice on the cross.
Similarly, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and the prophets were saved before Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross in light of Christ’s future sacrifice on the cross.
The big difference is that not only was the Blessed Virgin saved like the Old Testament saints, but she was preserved free from sin from the moment of her conception.
The Greek text of St. Luke’s Gospel reads, “thou that wast and remainest MOST graced/favored.” The most graced/favored one can be is “full of grace,” hence, the traditional Catholic translation of St. Luke’s Gospel as “full of grace.” Note that Protestant bibles in translating this word as “highly favored” are not giving you a literal translation because the Greek word indicates the superlative rather than comparative of the word grace/favor.
In both St. Luke 11 and St. Matthew 12, Jesus Christ underscores why the Blessed Virgin is so highly regarded by Catholics. It is not that she was his physical mother, though she certainly is honored for that reason, but primarily because she more than any other Christian heard the word of God and obeyed it and did the will of the Father. “Be it done unto me according to thy Word.” It is for this reason that “all generations shall call her blessed.”
The Blessed Virgin received the fruits of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross prior to the actual sacrifice. Herein lies the substance of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. In other words, God preserved the Blessed Virgin free from sin from the moment of her conception in light of her Son’s future sacrifice on the cross.
Similarly, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and the prophets were saved before Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross in light of Christ’s future sacrifice on the cross.
The big difference is that not only was the Blessed Virgin saved like the Old Testament saints, but she was preserved free from sin from the moment of her conception.
The Greek text of St. Luke’s Gospel reads, “thou that wast and remainest MOST graced/favored.” The most graced/favored one can be is “full of grace,” hence, the traditional Catholic translation of St. Luke’s Gospel as “full of grace.” Note that Protestant bibles in translating this word as “highly favored” are not giving you a literal translation because the Greek word indicates the superlative rather than comparative of the word grace/favor.
In both St. Luke 11 and St. Matthew 12, Jesus Christ underscores why the Blessed Virgin is so highly regarded by Catholics. It is not that she was his physical mother, though she certainly is honored for that reason, but primarily because she more than any other Christian heard the word of God and obeyed it and did the will of the Father. “Be it done unto me according to thy Word.” It is for this reason that “all generations shall call her blessed.”
S
SFH
Guest
The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross was necessary for the Blessed Virgin’s salvation as it was necessary for all men’s salvation.
The Blessed Virgin received the fruits of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross prior to the actual sacrifice. Herein lies the substance of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. In other words, God preserved the Blessed Virgin free from sin from the moment of her conception in light of her Son’s future sacrifice on the cross.
Similarly, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and the prophets were saved before Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross in light of Christ’s future sacrifice on the cross.
The big difference is that not only was the Blessed Virgin saved like the Old Testament saints, but she was preserved free from sin from the moment of her conception.
The Greek text of St. Luke’s Gospel reads, “thou that wast and remainest MOST graced/favored.” The most graced/favored one can be is “full of grace,” hence, the traditional Catholic translation of St. Luke’s Gospel as “full of grace.” Note that Protestant bibles in translating this word as “highly favored” are not giving you a literal translation because the Greek word indicates the superlative rather than comparative of the word grace/favor.
In both St. Luke 11 and St. Matthew 12, Jesus Christ underscores why the Blessed Virgin is so highly regarded by Catholics. It is not that she was his physical mother, though she certainly is honored for that reason, but primarily because she more than any other Christian heard the word of God and obeyed it and did the will of the Father. “Be it done unto me according to thy Word.” It is for this reason that “all generations shall call her blessed.”
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
See here:
of the Blessed Virgin CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tomb****Mary
“At the beginning of the fifth century a pilgrim from Armenia visited “the tomb of the Virgin in the valley of Josaphat”, and about 431 the “Breviarius de Hierusalem” mentions in that valley “the basilica of Holy Mary, which contains her sepulchre”. Thenceforth pilgrims of various rites repaired thither to venerate the empty tomb of Mary.”
of the Blessed Virgin CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tomb****Mary
“At the beginning of the fifth century a pilgrim from Armenia visited “the tomb of the Virgin in the valley of Josaphat”, and about 431 the “Breviarius de Hierusalem” mentions in that valley “the basilica of Holy Mary, which contains her sepulchre”. Thenceforth pilgrims of various rites repaired thither to venerate the empty tomb of Mary.”
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
This is the problem that St. Thomas Aquinas had as well. St. Thomas knew that the Church taught that 1) all humanity needed a savior, and 2) Mary was sinless. He had difficulty reconciling the two.
However, according to Catholic theology, Mary, by nature, was subject to original sin and personal sin, just like everbyody else. Yet, she was saved by the Savior at the moment of her conception. Scripture tells us that sanctification within the womb is possible. For example, According to Jer. 1:5: “Before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee.” And of John the Baptist, Luke 1:15 says*: “He shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.*”
Given the above passages where God chose a special priviledge for John the Baptist due to the role God had planned for him, it ought not to be inconcievable to the faithful that God would choose a special privilege for His Son’s Mother, Mary, such that she was sanctified at the very moment of her conception. Yet, Mary’s sanctification was just as reliant upon the grace of Christ as was John the Baptist’s sanctification, which also occured before birth. All of humanity needs a savior, and that Savior is Jesus Christ.
Philosophically speaking, Mary’s sanctification is to be understood to have occurred as described by Duns Scotus (d. 1308) (in III Sent., dist. iii, in both commentaries): “***the sanctification after animation demanded that it should follow in the order of nature not of time” ***
God transcends time, so Christ’s grace could make man righteous, like Abraham and the other prophets of the OT prior to the incarnation, passion, death, and resurrection. Christ could sanctify John in the womb of Elizabeth while Christ was still in the womb of Mary. His redemption is not limited by time. So, the redemption of Christ could pour out His saving grace upon his Mother, Mary, at her conception. Mary needed Christ as her savior just as surely as Abraham, Elijah, John the Baptist, and all humanity before and after the events at Calvary.
Incorrect. Catholicism does not teach that God does anything apart from Christ. Christ is God. The saving grace that poured out upon Mary came from Christ alone. Your error is in thinking that such salvation is done “*apart from Christ.” *It was no more apart from Christ than was the sanctification of John the Baptist in the womb of Elizabeth.
You can be saved in two ways: 1) after falling into the pit of sin, the Savior pulls you out, and 2) Before falling into the pit of sin, the Savior keeps you from falling. Whether you are saved by 1) or 2), the requirement to have a Savior exists. Mary was saved in the second manner, by the one Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
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prodromos
Guest
We believe that Mary was bodily assumed into heaven soon after her burial. We also believe the same for the Apostle John, although my understanding is that he had his disciples place him in his tomb before he had died, and when they returned the next day they found the tomb to be empty. So just like with Mary, the church has no relics of St John the Evangelist.
John.
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rom323
Guest
Please humor me, just where in Scripture did you find the Assumption of Mary??? Where does it say that she was Immacuately Conceived???
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