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NonCatholic
Guest
Hey Elvis,
Look at how guanophore articulates his posts; much easier to follow his reasoning’s, than yours.
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Look at how guanophore articulates his posts; much easier to follow his reasoning’s, than yours.
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SemperReformada
Guest
I don’t think your answer has anything to do with Judas being saved…does it? My question was how does a certain poster know that Judas was saved.
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SemperReformada
Guest
I’m afraid to answer because it will completely derail the thread.
At a minimum I don’t see how one can say they have free will to accept God when they can’t move toward God without God’s grace. Left on their own they don’t have the ability to choose…so I guess I wouldn’t describe a will that can’t choose w/out help as being free.
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him…”
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DD2007
Guest
Can a reprobate lose their damnation?
D
davidv
Guest
D
DD2007
Guest
Just wondering.
B
broski234
Guest
And what if you don’t live up to this committment? What then? Can you say that you live up to your committment, all day everyday?
And what about this perseverance thing? Is that a work?
And what about this perseverance thing? Is that a work?
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DD2007
Guest
Are you addressing me?
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elvisman
Guest
No offense, but I think this is a cop-out.
**I do appreciate your charitable attitude, though.
**
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elvisman
Guest
No offense, but I think this is a cop-out.
I do appreciate your charitable attitude, though.
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broski234
Guest
No sorry. I was addressing NonCatholic but for some reason it didn’t put his quote on my message.
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DD2007
Guest
po18guy
Well-known member
I was just going to say that so much of Christianity has been “reverse engineered” to fit the bible! How on earth could Calvin decide that souls were doomed from birth, and others saved from birth? A life of abject sin would be the obvious human choice upon knowing this, since heaven can neither be lost, nor hell avoided. This strikes me as a typical dark European philosophy, and was clearly not taught by Paul, to name only one.
po18guy
Well-known member
What does “fear and trembling” mean? Security? Not.
I know not if you are Calvinist, but the entire concept seems to be the leading of a demon. Why try for Heaven if you cannot reach it? Why try to avoid hell if it is inevitable?
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mackbrislawn
Guest
Yes, we are secure in the hand of our Father, because we know we have a Father we can rely on, unlike the way it is with many earthly fathers. But we have a heavenly Father who is always faithful and trustworthy, and therefore we have the joy of security of His love.
We have no confusion about this.
But, we also have Christian freedom. Free will. Since we are not slaves, our Father does permit us to leave if we will to do so. If a slave leaves, he is dragged back. But if a son chooses to leave, the father lets him go, because he is a son and not a slave.
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qui_est_ce
Guest
Every single person in the world is saved by the blood of Christ on the Cross. Even those who never heard of Him. He died for ALL (it’s in the Bible somewhere search here
biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=much+will+be+required&qs_version=49)
Luke 12:48
but the* one who did not know it,** and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, **will receive but few *From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
Those who know Truth are held to a higher standard. That would be Judas.
*Mark 4 Sower -
January 28, 2009
Mk 4:1-20
The sower sows the word.
These are the ones on the path where the word is sown.
As soon as they hear, Satan comes at once
and takes away the word sown in them.
And these are the ones sown on rocky ground who,
when they hear the word, receive it at once with joy.
But they have no roots; they last only for a time.
**Then when tribulation or persecution comes because of the word,
they quickly fall away.*Those sown among thorns are another sort.
They are the people who hear the word,
but worldly anxiety, the lure of riches,
and the craving for other things intrude and choke the word,
and it bears no fruit.
But those sown on rich soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it
and bear fruit thirty and sixty and a hundredfold.”
The the seed that fell on rocky ground are people who embrace the faith (were saved in your lingo) but lost it (got unsaved). Same for the thorns. They know the Truth (like Judas) but they put the world ahead of Jesus.
Catholics don’t use the term “saved” in the same way OSASers do. We say ALL are saved, but only those that participate in Christ’s Body will go to Heaven. Those who don’t lose their salvation and go to Hell.
If someone who has lived an otherwise good Christian life suddenly decides to murder somebody, it’s a mortal sin and they will go to HELL if that sin is not confessed before death.
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DD2007
Guest
I’m a 5 point Calvinist.
There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what Refomed Theology is. Here is a good site to browse around to learn:
monergism.com/
:tiphat:
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Marquette
Guest
The OP wanted to be shown FROM HEBREWS that you can lose your salvation:
Hebrews 3:6 “but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are IF WE HOLD FAST our confidence and the boast of our hope firm UNTIL THE END.”
Hebrews 3:12 “TAKE CARE, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in FALLING AWAY from the living God.”
Hebrews 3:13 “But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is till call “Today,” LEST ANY ONE OF YOU be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.”
Hebrews 3:14 “For we have become partakers of Christ IF WE HOLD FAST the beginning of our assurance firm UNTIL THE END.”
Hebrews 4:1 “Therefore, LET US FEAR lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, Any one of you should seem to HAVE COME SHORT OF IT.”
Hebrews 4:11 “Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, LEST ANYONE FALL through following the same example of disobedience.”
Hebrews 5:9 “and having been made perfect, He became TO ALL THOSE WHO OBEY HIM the source of eternal salvation;”
Hebrews 6:6 (This has been quoted several times by others) “and then have fallen away, I TIS IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO REPENTANCE, since they again crucity to themselves the Son fo God and put Him to open shame.”
Hebrews 6:8 “but if it yields thorn and thistles, IT IS WORTHLESS AND CLOSE TO BEING CURSED and it ends up being burned.”
Hebrews 10:36 “For you have NEED OF ENDURANCE so that when youhave done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.”
Hebrews 10:38 “But My righteous one shall live by faith; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, My soul has no pleasure in him.”
Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of those WHO SHRINK BACK TO DESTRUCTION, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.”
Hebrews 11:6 “And without faith IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE HIM, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.”
(Here see rest of chapter**–faith is an ACTION VERB**
Noah PREPARED AN ARK
Abraham WENT TO A PLACE, LIVED AS AN ALIEN
Sarah RECEIVED ABILITY TO CONCEIVE
Abraham OFFERED UP ISAAC
Isaac BLESSED JACOB AND ESAU
Jacob BLESSED his sons
Joseph GAVE ORDERS
Moses WAS HIDDEN
Moses REFUSED
Moses LEFT EGYPT etc. to end of chapter
Hebrews 12:1 “…let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us RUN WITH ENDURANCE THE RACE THAT IS SET BEFORE US.”
Hebrews 12:14 “Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification WITHOUT WHICH NO ONE WILL SEE THE LORD.”
Hebrews 12:15 “See to it that no one COMES SHORT OF THE GRACE OF GOD; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it MANY BE DEFILED.”
Hebrews 12:16 “that there be no immoral or godless person like ESAU, who SOLD HIS OWN BIRTHRIGHT for a single meal.”
Hebrews 12:25 “See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, MUCH LESS SHALL WE ESCAPE who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.”
Hebrews 3:6 “but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are IF WE HOLD FAST our confidence and the boast of our hope firm UNTIL THE END.”
Hebrews 3:12 “TAKE CARE, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in FALLING AWAY from the living God.”
Hebrews 3:13 “But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is till call “Today,” LEST ANY ONE OF YOU be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.”
Hebrews 3:14 “For we have become partakers of Christ IF WE HOLD FAST the beginning of our assurance firm UNTIL THE END.”
Hebrews 4:1 “Therefore, LET US FEAR lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, Any one of you should seem to HAVE COME SHORT OF IT.”
Hebrews 4:11 “Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, LEST ANYONE FALL through following the same example of disobedience.”
Hebrews 5:9 “and having been made perfect, He became TO ALL THOSE WHO OBEY HIM the source of eternal salvation;”
Hebrews 6:6 (This has been quoted several times by others) “and then have fallen away, I TIS IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO REPENTANCE, since they again crucity to themselves the Son fo God and put Him to open shame.”
Hebrews 6:8 “but if it yields thorn and thistles, IT IS WORTHLESS AND CLOSE TO BEING CURSED and it ends up being burned.”
Hebrews 10:36 “For you have NEED OF ENDURANCE so that when youhave done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.”
Hebrews 10:38 “But My righteous one shall live by faith; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, My soul has no pleasure in him.”
Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of those WHO SHRINK BACK TO DESTRUCTION, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.”
Hebrews 11:6 “And without faith IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE HIM, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.”
(Here see rest of chapter**–faith is an ACTION VERB**
Noah PREPARED AN ARK
Abraham WENT TO A PLACE, LIVED AS AN ALIEN
Sarah RECEIVED ABILITY TO CONCEIVE
Abraham OFFERED UP ISAAC
Isaac BLESSED JACOB AND ESAU
Jacob BLESSED his sons
Joseph GAVE ORDERS
Moses WAS HIDDEN
Moses REFUSED
Moses LEFT EGYPT etc. to end of chapter
Hebrews 12:1 “…let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us RUN WITH ENDURANCE THE RACE THAT IS SET BEFORE US.”
Hebrews 12:14 “Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification WITHOUT WHICH NO ONE WILL SEE THE LORD.”
Hebrews 12:15 “See to it that no one COMES SHORT OF THE GRACE OF GOD; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it MANY BE DEFILED.”
Hebrews 12:16 “that there be no immoral or godless person like ESAU, who SOLD HIS OWN BIRTHRIGHT for a single meal.”
Hebrews 12:25 “See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, MUCH LESS SHALL WE ESCAPE who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.”
N
NonCatholic
Guest
In reverence for God in your works - part of sanctification process; nothing to do with justification.
N
NonCatholic
Guest
Keep reminding me to respond in full to this post; I don’t have the energy or time right now that it will take to give a complete rebuttal. I will say this, some of these passages are speaking of professing Christians as opposed to a possessing Christians. Running the race to win is part of the sanctification process; those that endure to the end are true believers the one’s that don’t will fall away because when their faith is actually tested, they fall away because they were possessors. There is nothing there that indicates that anyone loses there salvation; this would be contrary to the teaching of Scripture and Scripture does not contradict itself. If it were an apparent contradiction, then the correct conclusion would be one is incorrect and we need further study to unravel the apparent contradiction.
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