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NonCatholic
Guest
What does God’s word say about which person of the Trinity give us the assurance? I believe the problem here is that…well better not say right now; will give away the answer to the question above.
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NonCatholic
Guest
See post #101 and try to find the answer.
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Matariel
Guest
At the risk of being off-topic-- you do realize that it was a CATHOLIC Ecumenical Council that defined the Doctrine of the Trinity, don’t you?
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mackbrislawn
Guest
How to disprove the quote?
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NonCatholic
Guest
You make a valid about not knowing till the end based on the post. I can’t think of a better way to put it other than to say that those that turn away had no real faith and those that the Lord has called will endure to the end because He is the one doing the sanctifying. This does not mean that one cannot know till the end if they are saved. The true servant knows whether or not they are saved. I will say with 100% certainty that I am going to be with the Lord immediately upon death.
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NonCatholic
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Good post!Paul was asked the same kinds of things. He covered this in Romans 9.
Romans 9:13-24
[13] As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!
[15] For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
[16] So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.
[17] For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.”
[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
[20] But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me thus?”
[21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?
[22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,
[23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,
[24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
The wonderful thing is that God saves! He doesn’t have to save anyone and he would still be good. There is nothing wrong with Justice. He gives mercy to some. He gives justice to others. Nobody deserves anything but justice. So he is indeed a good God of mercy and justice.
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ncgolf
Guest
Why a judgement day then? If you are a true servant none is needed and if you are not … none either … since you should know you were not a true servant.
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Matariel
Guest
Hm. I don’t buy that. There’re tonnes of verses that say you can fall away from salvation. :sad_yes:
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp
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mackbrislawn
Guest
Fair enough, works don’t save you.
But, if you don’t do works, it shows you weren’t saved. Therefore you must do works to show you are saved, because if you don’t do works and don’t endure to the end, you will find out you weren’t saved after all.
po18guy
Well-known member
Ah, but who was most cunning of all the creatures? Recall that he used scripture to tempt our Savior.
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NonCatholic
Guest
The judgment for the saved is for rewards, which are probably more like accolades, the best reward is that one is in heaven with Jesus.
On your second point; there are many who believe their saved, but are self deceived for many reasons, one of them is because they think they associate with the right religion. Matthew 7:13-14 speaks of the this along with other Scriptures.
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NonCatholic
Guest
The only way I can describe it to you on a personal note. I can’t help but do good things, I do things I would have not even thought about if not for a regenerate heart. Many are the little things, but it is always thinking of the Lord and putting others before self. I’ll give an example that happened today. We recently had about 8 inches of snow with freezing rain in between. I was outside shoveling my half of the driveway so I could get to the grocery store to get milk and bread…told my spouse I’d be back in a few minutes, then and I saw my neighbor 3 doors down shoveling her driveway and her car was stuck at the bottom. So I stopped my shoveling and went over to help her. There was a lot of ice and it took about 45 minutes. We got her car up the driveway, but we needed to do the bottom where the snow plow went through. We worked another 10 minutes and told her that I try to finish it before she came home from work. I am still recovering from knee surgery in December and just had my 9th Epidermal Steroid Injection for my low back pain, so this is something I should not be doing, Before receiving Christ; I would not have helped her - seeing she would most likely get it done anyway and besides my back and knee are in pain and this would only make it worse, but now I can’t help myself; i would have to be in a state of total incapacitation not to see my neighbors need and not help…even then i might call another neighbor to help; whereas before i wouldn’t have done that.
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NonCatholic
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I don’t know of one that says “one can fall away or lose their salvation” Romans 8:29-39 pretty much puts it to bed, but that are many others we can look at.
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guanophore
Guest
This is Catholic. I am not sure what you want me to address.
This is not Catholic. It contradicts the Apostolic teaching. It is a corollary from the errant doctrine of total depravity conconcted by Calvin 1500 years after the Apostles.
God calls all to be saved. Catholics call this “prevenient” grace. If people respond to the call, they get more grace.
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guanophore
Guest
This is not biblical, or Apostolic. It is a modern man made doctrine.
Exactly!
Our salvation is not attained in this life.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Really?
Let me ask you this question: What if you develop a serious disease that leaves you immobilized and in excruciating pain for years. What if all your family members abandon you and you are left alone in a run-down hospice with poor food and little heat. What if you suffer mercilessly and curse God who did not rescue you with your dying breath?
You are so sure that you wouldn’t grow bitter and resentful toward God?
Under any circumstances?
I pray nothing like this happens to you, my friend, but you have no idea how you will face adversity and despair until it happens.
Finally, I note that all those who you cavalierly say had “no real faith” would have been just as cock-sure as you at one point in their walk with Christ…
Like you, they were clueless.
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guanophore
Guest
This is not scriptural, or Apostolic.
It is Catholic that Jesus is the one doing the sanctifying, through the HS. However ,some of those He has cleansed fall away. They choose not to allow HIm to complete what He started.
Presumputous. Also, according to the Apostle, immature.
May God richly bless your sacrifice and zeal.
I believe you. Would you be willing to take off your Calvanistic glasses for a bit, just to try to see it from the other side?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Hebrews 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=6&version=31#fen-NIV-30035b”)]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Have you been enlightened?
Have you tasted the heavenly gift?
Have you shared in the Holy Spirit?
Have you tasted the goodness of the Word of God?
So had those Paul suggests may possibly fall away.
John 15:1-2
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunesa] so that it will be even more fruitful.
Are you in Christ?
So are those who Jesus says will be cut off if they bear no fruit.
Regardless of whether you think you are bearing fruit or not is immaterial…it is possible for someone IN CHRIST to be cut off according to the Word of God.
So, now you know of two verses that do suggest you can lose your salvation or fall away. There are others.
You can stack as many verses against these as you like…the existence of only one verse like those above is enough to cause you to reconsider your theology.
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
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Crimson_Seraph
Guest
I wish that Eternal Security was true, it would be great if you never had to worry about falling away. Sadly though, my study of Scripture leads me to deny that this belief is true. I often find that it breeds apathy in the Christian life for leading a holy life in dedication to Christ, and sadly can lead to destruction.
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