Strong Desire to Attend Mass, But Not Catholic

[Liraco]

My logic always got in the way in some sense. Many of the beliefs seemed ridiculous or just wrong. I could not accept them.

“Funny” to see logic lead you to faith when so many would swear by their logic that keeps them “safe” from religion. If only common sense was as described (“common”). Grandfather makes a good point.

Perhaps those prayers from others and Mother Theresa helped you see that those things didn’t contain the Truth you knew existed in the back of your head.

I also examined my own background and heritage, which is Judaism…it seemed there were some things missing from it. I hate to use this word, but there was a certain feeling of “deadness” in it.

Interesting that you felt this, especially in that it felt incomplete. Indeed, Jesus came to give us the fullness of truth to bring everyone to Him, not just the Jews with a new covenant.

Perhaps the “deadness” you felt is in the loss of faith because they’re still waiting for the Messiah who they don’t realize is already waiting for them. Grandfather makes a better point though, that “dead things feel dead”. It seems you’re quite sensitive to discern these things.

Bishop Sheen won an Emmy Award for his show. When he accepted the award, he said, “I’d like to thank my writers: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John”

I would really like to be able to see him deliver that line. Genius! Sad how times have changed. Still boggles my mind that he had a national TV show and was quite popular.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

converse with God as you would converse with another person. don’t try to imitate the words or format of others. there is no one, right way to pray. remember God already knows what you need even before you ask him, so just ask, just pray.

I assume its OK to use prescribed Catholic prayers? I’ve been mostly doing that, praying the rosary and also the novena to the Sacred Heart of Jesus which my pastor is a big fan of. I’ve also been saying the Liturgy of the Hours as my pastor recently gave me a 4-volume set which belonged to a priest who is now deceased. I’m struggling with it, finding it a bit difficult but enjoying it also. It reminds me of the mass in some respects. And of course mass is a prayer, isn’t it? I seem to pray best in mass or during adoration. I do a little bit of prayer in my own words morning and evening, and sometimes a bit during the day but I never know what to say and often draw a blank. I’m still in awe of people who areable to make up their own words so easily.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

Bishop Sheen won an Emmy Award for his show. When he accepted the award, he said, “I’d like to thank my writers: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John”. Imagine anything like that now…

That must have been amazing… I certainly can’t imagine anything like that at the Emmy Awards now! Regardless of one’s religious or spiritual beliefs, its scary to think how much the media has changed in a relatively short period of history. These days Bishop Sheen would likely be made a mockery of by celebrities whose counterparts were praising his efforts 50 years ago… weird and scary how times have changed so drastically.
Al Masetti:

Bishop Sheen’s television program was in prime time and had the best ratings in his time slot

That’s amazing too !! Btw, I did start reading his book and I am enjoying it so far. I like his sense of humor especially.

 

[chewchoo]

I assume its OK to use prescribed Catholic prayers? I’ve been mostly doing that, praying the rosary and also the novena to the Sacred Heart of Jesus which my pastor is a big fan of. I’ve also been saying the Liturgy of the Hours as my pastor recently gave me a 4-volume set which belonged to a priest who is now deceased. I’m struggling with it, finding it a bit difficult but enjoying it also. It reminds me of the mass in some respects. And of course mass is a prayer, isn’t it? I seem to pray best in mass or during adoration. I do a little bit of prayer in my own words morning and evening, and sometimes a bit during the day but I never know what to say and often draw a blank. I’m still in awe of people who areable to make up their own words so easily.

prescribed prayer is fine, but also allow some quiet time to just be with our Lord. listen to what he has to say to you. your mind will wander, most people do. but we need to just stop a moment and be.

i remember a story that i will try to recall… an old man would sit in the church at adoration, just staring at the eucharist. somebody asked him once what he was praying. nothing, he said. i’m just looking at Jesus and he’s looking back at me.

i’m not saying don’t use prescribed prayer, we all need to say those prayers. they are good for us. but so is just being in the company of Jesus.

as for the spontaneous prayer… if you never get there, it won’t make you less of a catholic. some people have that gift and some don’t. discover YOUR gift.

 

[jmcrae]

I assume its OK to use prescribed Catholic prayers?

Absolutely!!

I’ve been mostly doing that, praying the rosary and also the novena to the Sacred Heart of Jesus which my pastor is a big fan of.

I like those prayers, too.

I’ve also been saying the Liturgy of the Hours as my pastor recently gave me a 4-volume set which belonged to a priest who is now deceased. I’m struggling with it, finding it a bit difficult but enjoying it also.

If you can find a group to pray it with, that greatly enhances the experience. Perhaps your priest knows of a group, or even belongs to one.

It reminds me of the mass in some respects. And of course mass is a prayer, isn’t it? I seem to pray best in mass or during adoration. I do a little bit of prayer in my own words morning and evening, and sometimes a bit during the day but I never know what to say and often draw a blank. I’m still in awe of people who areable to make up their own words so easily.

Think of God as your friend. What do you say to your friends? That’s how we talk to God, when we are praying in our own words. It doesn’t have to be anything fancy.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

The difference here is that the invitation came directly from the Lord. Thus, the comfort level that accompanied it.

Good point! Makes sense for me too. There’s the logic again.

po18guy:

A traditional Jewish objection to Christianity is that man, in the case of Jesus, cannot become God.

Yes, that’s one of the main objections actually. Moschiach (the Messiah) was not supposed to be God at all, simply a man who would bring peace to Israel and the Jews. On the surface, Jesus appears to have done the opposite, as the Temple was destroyed and the Jewish people scattered throughout the world. This is why too that the Satmar are not Zionists and did not want to recognize the State of Israel… they believe in no Israel without the Messiah. Israel is simply a secular state in their eyes. Though, some of them are living in Israel now so I’m not sure, they might have changed their beliefs somewhat. I just remember my mother commenting that her parents did not recognize the State of Israel as being legit.

Additionally, it is wrong to worship a man, one may only worship God, so again that is an argument that Jesus cannot possibly be Moschiach, because Moschiach would a) not be God and b) no man could ever be worshipped as a God. Both points make it very difficult to accept Jesus. It makes me think also of the Lubavitch, some of whom believe their Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, was Moschiach. Then when he died, some believed he still was Moschiach and that he will be coming back again… and I have heard many Jews comment with both humor and disgust, “We had this same problem 2000 years ago!” Its a bitter pill for the typical relgious Jew to swallow, the whole concept of God become man and Moschiach being God… very difficult and it doesn’t surprise me that many have issue with it.

I wish I could somehow explain to them, and especially to the members of my extended family, how it all “makes sense” to me, but I don’t have the words. I have thought though that maybe in future, once I have converted and studied more, it may be something God is asking me to do. If so, I assume He will give me the strength and the words, because I don’t have a clue at this point how I would go about it! And it terrifies me if I’m honest.

po18guy:

The same Jesus Who was sent to the “lost sheep of Israel”. The following scripture seems written just for you:

Luke 15:3-6 Then Jesus told them this parable: "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’

He has called us here and we are rejoicing. Alleluia!

Thanks, that is a very nice passage… it almost made me cry! But I am kind of weepy today anyhow because has left and gone back to the States, and I am going to miss her company. We had a wonderful while she was here.

 

[chewchoo]

Thanks, that is a very nice passage… it almost made me cry! But I am kind of weepy today anyhow because has left and gone back to the States, and I am going to miss her company. We had a wonderful while she was here.

:hug1:

 

[Susan_Calvin]

I like those prayers, too.

That’s good! The rosary is one of my favourites now, and I really am partial to the Sacred Heart of Jesus prayer and the Litany of Mary also. I’m glad they are good prayers, because I feel they say a lot of what I would like to say, but can’t think of the words on my own. I do talk to God as a friend, like I think I said on here a while back that I sometimes tell Him in the morning that I am tired and need coffee. I usually ask Him to help me with my day. Sometimes I will start being sarcastic, in a humorous way, while I’m praying to Him. Then I laugh at myself about it and feel like a dork. I did it in Church once, was kneeling in prayer and then started snickering a bit (not loudly) and this poor elderly lady sitting near me… well, I think she thought I was losing my mind.

Funny you mention God being my friend though, because I was just talking to my priest this morning, saying I was feeling lonely because my friend has gone back to the United States. I called her my best friend and he interrupted and corrected me. He said something to the effect that, my best friend was in the tabernacle and that I should sit and be with Him and then I wouldn’t feel lonely anymore. Then later on today, by way of weird coincidence, I listened to one of the Catholic answers podcasts and Father Vincent Serpa was giving the same advice to a lady who said she felt lonely. It was so uncanny that I wondered if my priest had listened to that podcast too?? Anyhow it doesn’t matter, its a great message for me either way.

jmcrae:

If you can find a group to pray it with, that greatly enhances the experience. Perhaps your priest knows of a group, or even belongs to one.

I’m not sure… I often see him praying in the church himself. He sits in front of the tabernacle like he was telling me to do, sometimes he’s saying the rosary and I see him with his breviary quite often also. He’s always alone. But I’ll ask him. It would be good to be part of a group at least initially so I could figure things out.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

:hug1:

Thanks so much! I really miss her a lot… I think I was fairly lonely here actually and just didn’t realize it until she came for a visit. Father is right thought about my Friend in the tabernacle and its a good opportunity for me to grow in my faith.

Also still hurting a bit about my other friend, the atheist, who is not speaking to me still. Weird actually, I had a dream about her the other night. Another church dream! I dreamed someone was burning the church down. Our church was just renovated and its very beautiful, so I was very upset and very angry that someone would try to burn it down. Then for some goofy reason, I was in charge of doling out the punishment to the person who tried to burn down the church. I was super angry until I saw it was my atheist friend, and she was scared and was crying. I felt bad for her and decided to let her go. But then instead of saying “thank you” she just went back to trying to burn down the church again. Then suddenly my priest was there wagging his finger at me and saying “Don’t throw your pearls before swine”… and I was like, but she’s my friend, I don’t want her to get left behind! Then I woke up and felt really confused.

 

[po18guy]

Yes, that’s one of the main objections actually. Moschiach (the Messiah) was not supposed to be God at all, simply a man who would bring peace to Israel and the Jews. On the surface, Jesus appears to have done the opposite, as the Temple was destroyed and the Jewish people scattered throughout the world. This is why too that the Satmar are not Zionists and did not want to recognize the State of Israel… they believe in no Israel without the Messiah. Israel is simply a secular state in their eyes. Though, some of them are living in Israel now so I’m not sure, they might have changed their beliefs somewhat. I just remember my mother commenting that her parents did not recognize the State of Israel as being legit.

It becomes much more clear once one listens to and honors the prophets of God. Luke 24:27 tells of this.

Additionally, it is wrong to worship a man, one may only worship God, so again that is an argument that Jesus cannot possibly be Moschiach, because Moschiach would a) not be God and b) no man could ever be worshipped as a God. Both points make it very difficult to accept Jesus. It makes me think also of the Lubavitch, some of whom believe their Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, was Moschiach. Then when he died, some believed he still was Moschiach and that he will be coming back again… and I have heard many Jews comment with both humor and disgust, “We had this same problem 2000 years ago!” Its a bitter pill for the typical relgious Jew to swallow, the whole concept of God become man and Moschiach being God… very difficult and it doesn’t surprise me that many have issue with it.

The “problem” for Christians 2,000 years ago was that they felt that had lost their Savior to death. Again, Luke 24:13-35 tells of this sense of loss. However, His words of comfort “Behold, I will be with you, even to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20) remain with us, a promise fulfilled by the Eucharist. At adoration, once can know that Christ’s promises are trustworthy.

I wish I could somehow explain to them, and especially to the members of my extended family, how it all “makes sense” to me, but I don’t have the words. I have thought though that maybe in future, once I have converted and studied more, it may be something God is asking me to do. If so, I assume He will give me the strength and the words, because I don’t have a clue at this point how I would go about it! And it terrifies me if I’m honest.

When that day comes, it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of God speaking through you. More words of comfort: “Do not be afraid” (John 14:27).

Thanks, that is a very nice passage… it almost made me cry! But I am kind of weepy today anyhow because has left and gone back to the States, and I am going to miss her company. We had a wonderful while she was here.

Unlike the sorrow that accompanied Saint Paul when he left his brothers for judgment in Jerusalem (Acts 21:12-14), you have the promise of seeing her again. Consider the chance of you ever seeing her again after your youth - and under the circumstances in which you did. You will see her - if not in this life, then for all eternity!

Peace be with you.

 

[jmcrae]

Funny you mention God being my friend though, because I was just talking to my priest this morning, saying I was feeling lonely because my friend has gone back to the United States. I called her my best friend and he interrupted and corrected me. He said something to the effect that, my best friend was in the tabernacle and that I should sit and be with Him and then I wouldn’t feel lonely anymore. Then later on today, by way of weird coincidence, I listened to one of the Catholic answers podcasts and Father Vincent Serpa was giving the same advice to a lady who said she felt lonely. It was so uncanny that I wondered if my priest had listened to that podcast too?? Anyhow it doesn’t matter, its a great message for me either way.

I think you hear it so much, because it resonates with so many people - we are all so very lonely sometimes - and the only answer that has ever worked for loneliness is time spent in front of the Tabernacle. Nobody is ever there for you like Jesus is there for you. :hug3:

 

[Susan_Calvin]

i remember a story that i will try to recall… an old man would sit in the church at adoration, just staring at the eucharist. somebody asked him once what he was praying. nothing, he said. i’m just looking at Jesus and he’s looking back at me.

That really sounds like me! I often just sit or kneel in front of the monstrance and look at the host. I feel like Jesus is looking back at me also. I don’t always say or even think much of anything. I’m just there, and I don’t feel I need to say anything, but I worried a bit that was wrong. Its good to know somebody else is doing the same thing, even if its just part of a story/joke there must be some truth in it!

chewchoo:

as for the spontaneous prayer… if you never get there, it won’t make you less of a catholic. some people have that gift and some don’t. discover YOUR gift.

That’s good to know too! I really am not good at spontaneous prayer. I enjoy the prescribed prayers, or just being quiet. My own words, I never know what to say. Its very early in the game though of course and I’m hopeful my prayer life will develop.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

we are all so very lonely sometimes - and the only answer that has ever worked for loneliness is time spent in front of the Tabernacle. Nobody is ever there for you like Jesus is there for you. :hug3:

That is so true! I was feeling quite sad and out of sorts this morning, so after mass I spent some time in front of the tabernacle and definitely felt better!

 

[Susan_Calvin]

There is a mistaken notion held by people with no religion that to be religious you have to turn off your mind and simply believe things based on no evidence. This is not true. We believe, because of much evidence.

Oh, interesting. I honestly didn’t realize there was a lot of evidence and logic as far as being Catholic. I just assumed a lot of doctrines / beliefs were accepted on faith. I *feel * the Church is correct, and I figured that was the gift of faith to me from God, as I usually distrust my feelings. I didn’t think it might be truly logical to believe. I guess I haven’t got that far in catechism yet.

grandfather:

The anti-relligious ideas of the skeptics of a fairly recent period called the age of reason, raised the natural sciences authority over theology. It was clever, because the presumption was anyone who disagreed with them was unreasonable or did not use reason. It held that the only tihngs we could be sure of were those which we could experience with our senses, or instruments that magnified our senses. This precludes any knowledge of spiritual things. The jusrisdiction of the natural sciences is the physical universe. The scientific method says were can never know anything for certain. We can have theories that might be true, but that could at anytime be proven false. Using science therefore, we can never have certain knowledge of anything spiritual, or even of the phytsical world.

Again, very interesting… thank you for sharing as you’re giving me so much to ponder!

 

[grandfather]

That really sounds like me! I often just sit or kneel in front of the monstrance and look at the host. I feel like Jesus is looking back at me also. I don’t always say or even think much of anything. I’m just there, and I don’t feel I need to say anything, but I worried a bit that was wrong. Its good to know somebody else is doing the same thing, even if its just part of a story/joke there must be some truth in it!

.

The old man was Saint John Vianney, patron of parish priests.

What happens to me at adoration, often not always, is there is a period of quiet where I am just being there, then my mind seems to think things I never thought before, as if my thoughts were being reordered. It is like learning new things, seeing things differently, as if I were being shown them. It is difficult to find words for what happens there.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

The old man was Saint John Vianney, patron of parish priests.

Oh WOW that is weird… as my priest recently recommended I read the sermons of the Cure d’Ars. I really like him from what I’ve read so far, he’s becoming one of my favourite saints. There’s a roundel of him in our church.

grandfather:

What happens to me at adoration, often not always, is there is a period of quiet where I am just being there, then my mind seems to think things I never thought before, as if my thoughts were being reordered. It is like learning new things, seeing things differently, as if I were being shown them. It is difficult to find words for what happens there.

Yes, I think I know what you mean… and it is difficult to explain to be sure. I wish I could go right now actually, even though I was there this morning!!

 

[Liraco]

I had a dream about her the other night. Another church dream! I dreamed someone was burning the church down. Our church was just renovated and its very beautiful, so I was very upset and very angry that someone would try to burn it down. Then for some goofy reason, I was in charge of doling out the punishment to the person who tried to burn down the church. I was super angry until I saw it was my atheist friend, and she was scared and was crying. I felt bad for her and decided to let her go. But then instead of saying “thank you” she just went back to trying to burn down the church again. Then suddenly my priest was there wagging his finger at me and saying “Don’t throw your pearls before swine”… and I was like, but she’s my friend, I don’t want her to get left behind! Then I woke up and felt really confused.

What an interesting dream! Maybe I’m reading too much into this but it jumped at me very clearly.

This is what I saw:
The new Church represents your newly formed faith (your new home). The burning of the church (and by your friend no less) represents an attack to your faith and the fire is her anger with the Catholic Church (the reason for that, you already left clear.) In essence it’s that struggle she made to try and make you “snap out” and not go down this path which had once hurt her so badly. She likely didn’t want you to hurt in the same way (and yet her rejection only made things worse because she acted out of anger and not love). You let her go just as you told us, giving her some time to cool off and hopefully to talk again sometime.

She didn’t say thank you because she doesn’t understand your choice and she’s still hurt, thus her anger (the flame) still burns and so she continues in being against this. Now she sees you as being “with the enemy” (because you can be sure that the REAL enemy loves nothing more than for good to appear as evil).

The “priest” telling you that phrase could likely be a person or group of people that would rather have you say “good riddance” and forget about your friend and forget her. You of course still love your friend, which is why you don’t want her left behind to be consumed by her own anger.

Maybe this can clear up some of the confusion for you. I’m no expert on dreams but it sure does seem to be quite the parallel with what you’ve gone through thus far (except for the part of people telling you to forget her).

 

[grandfather]

Oh WOW that is weird… as my priest recently recommended I read the sermons of the Cure d’Ars. I really like him from what I’ve read so far, he’s becoming one of my favourite saints. There’s a roundel of him in our church.

Yes, I think I know what you mean… and it is difficult to explain to be sure. I wish I could go right now actually, even though I was there this morning!!

You are being drawn, magnetized. Perhaps your vocation is contemplative. There is one order of nuns, the name will come to me, that all they do is pray in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

There is a biography of St. John Vianney in publication by TAN Books. It is a large volume. You are highly inteligent. St. John was not. The fact that he got through seminary was almost miraculous. There are different types of intelligence. Intelligence is a natural gift. Holiness is supernatural.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

I mentioned the following brielfly in another thread a couple of weeks back, but its still been bothering me a fair bit. I was going to start a new thread but then I wasn’t certain which forum to post it in, so I will make it part of this thread instead. Its part of the “continuting saga” of my conversion anyhow, so it more or less belongs here.

As some of you know I’ve been contacting various people from my past, the Sisters and I knew and the one older priest who helped me go to Catholic school. All my dealings with them so far have been quite positive. There was one exception though… through my highschool principal, a Sister who I admire very much, I obtained the address and phone number of another Sister who taught me math. Same congregation, but she is now in a different diocese, and younger than my principal. Anyhow, I called her to catch up and chat. Like the other Sisters, she was very happy to hear from me. We had a very long conversation, nearly 2 hours! Good thing I have an excellent phone plan!

However, she said many things which confused me. It seems her beliefs about being Catholic are radically different than my own. I know I am just a catechumen still, but I am no dummy. The things she said just didn’t add up and didn’t “feel right” to me. I was very conflicted after chatting with her.

She now works as the director of a nondemonational spirituality center. She lives by herself in an apartment. She is taking theology classes at the local university as she told me she wished she had obtained a degree in theology before becoming a Sister. Ok fine so far I guess… but then it started getting weird for me. She told me I should wait to become Catholic until I returned to the USA; my priest seemed too conservative, were her words. She said she knew priests who would tell me not to become Catholic at all and said she would put me in touch with them… that I should embrace being Jewish, “bloom where you’re planted” she said.

She recommended several spiritual books to me, and after researching them later on I found out none of the authors were Catholic. She recommended I study Buddhism and Hinduism. She said that God was more “pleased” with an atheist who was a fervent environmentalist than He was with a lukewarm Catholic. She said passion in life was the important thing, no matter what you were passionate about. She downplayed my interest in the rosary and Eucharistic Adoration. She openly admitted to not being happy with some of Pope Benedict’s policies.

Then the subject became spiritual directors, because I would like one… I told her I am speaking to my priest about various things, also the Sister who is teaching me catechism. To which she said, it was a “red flag” to her that my priest was giving me advice, and that I should not listen to him. She thought I should talk to a woman instead. So then I said, well what about the Sister who is teaching me? But when she found out the Sister is habited (she personally does not wear a habit) she recommended I not talk to her either. She gave me the name of a Sister she knows who is a university professor, saying she was a wonderful woman.

Well… fast forward about a week later, I spoke to the dear older priest who had helped me attend Catholic school. I had written him a letter a while back but decided to call anyhow. He was very happy to hear from me. I told him about my conversation with Sister and also the name of the Sister who is a professor who she recommended as a spiritual director. Well… Father said firstly, he used to have a lot of respect for the Sisters who taught me, but in recent years they had “gone off the deep end” (his words). He further said he would never send any young woman to any of them for spiritual direction. And then the most shocking part for me… he knows the Sister who is a professor, and he told me she does not attend mass! I was like wow… are you sure Father?? And he was sure as she has said so!! I was so stunned. He said she considers herself “beyond Catholicism”. So I said, “How can she still be a nun?” to which he replied, “Exactly!”. And then said he welcomed the Church’s investigation of American nuns…

This whole thing really saddens me. Not really anything to say about it, just I felt like venting. I really was shocked. I personally love mass and I can’t imagine a religious Sister NOT going to mass, its like a contradiction in terms.

I feel very fortunate to have the priest and Sisters I have here, that’s all I can say…

 

[Susan_Calvin]

You are being drawn, magnetized. Perhaps your vocation is contemplative. There is one order of nuns, the name will come to me, that all they do is pray in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

Weird again, as that order was mentioned to me the other day also. I don’t recall their name though either. Regarding my vocation though, I have lots of time to think about it, 4 years is what my priest is telling me… because I need to be a Catholic for 3 years before even considering anything. And I’m honestly not in a rush, I’m perfectly happy to wait for God to give me an answer. I’m actually looking forward to the next 4 years of searching and growing, and willing to accept whatever God’s plans are for me… religious vocation or secular life… whatever. If its truly what God wants I am happy either way. It feels so freeing to be able to say that!

grandfather:

There is a biography of St. John Vianney in publication by TAN Books. It is a large volume. You are highly inteligent. St. John was not. The fact that he got through seminary was almost miraculous. There are different types of intelligence. Intelligence is a natural gift. Holiness is supernatural.

I’ve ordered that book from TAN!! More “coincidences”! Unless there’s more than one, but it *is *a large book. I’m waiting for it to arrive in the mail. I didn’t realize he wasn’t very intelligent, but that certainly doesn’t matter to me in the slightest. I really like him either way.