Strong Desire to Attend Mass, But Not Catholic

[Susan_Calvin]

This is what I saw:
The new Church represents your newly formed faith (your new home). The burning of the church (and by your friend no less) represents an attack to your faith and the fire is her anger with the Catholic Church (the reason for that, you already left clear.) In essence it’s that struggle she made to try and make you “snap out” and not go down this path which had once hurt her so badly. She likely didn’t want you to hurt in the same way (and yet her rejection only made things worse because she acted out of anger and not love). You let her go just as you told us, giving her some time to cool off and hopefully to talk again sometime.

She didn’t say thank you because she doesn’t understand your choice and she’s still hurt, thus her anger (the flame) still burns and so she continues in being against this. Now she sees you as being “with the enemy” (because you can be sure that the REAL enemy loves nothing more than for good to appear as evil).

The “priest” telling you that phrase could likely be a person or group of people that would rather have you say “good riddance” and forget about your friend and forget her. You of course still love your friend, which is why you don’t want her left behind to be consumed by her own anger.

Maybe this can clear up some of the confusion for you. I’m no expert on dreams but it sure does seem to be quite the parallel with what you’ve gone through thus far (except for the part of people telling you to forget her).

Wow that was a really great interpretation… thank you! I’m not sure what it means either but your interpretation was very good and could very well be. The “pearls before swine” part… well, I’m wondering if its partially just because my priest’s homily was on that passage not so long ago. He said basically that we should not “waste time” trying to convince people who are not open to God. That we should pray for them, but spend more time on those who are more receptive to change. So I thought maybe that part of the dream was saying that I need to let my friend go for now and just pray for her. Which is what I’ve done anyhow. But I have been feeling sad about her again recently and maybe my brain is just processing that.

Thanks again for the interpretation… I know who to bug now if I have another weird dream!

 

[po18guy]

I mentioned the following brielfly in another thread a couple of weeks back, but its still been bothering me a fair bit. I was going to start a new thread but then I wasn’t certain which forum to post it in, so I will make it part of this thread instead. Its part of the “continuting saga” of my conversion anyhow, so it more or less belongs here.

As some of you know I’ve been contacting various people from my past, the Sisters and I knew and the one older priest who helped me go to Catholic school. All my dealings with them so far have been quite positive. There was one exception though… through my highschool principal, a Sister who I admire very much, I obtained the address and phone number of another Sister who taught me math. Same congregation, but she is now in a different diocese, and younger than my principal. Anyhow, I called her to catch up and chat. Like the other Sisters, she was very happy to hear from me. We had a very long conversation, nearly 2 hours! Good thing I have an excellent phone plan!

However, she said many things which confused me. It seems her beliefs about being Catholic are radically different than my own. I know I am just a catechumen still, but I am no dummy. The things she said just didn’t add up and didn’t “feel right” to me. I was very conflicted after chatting with her.

She now works as the director of a nondemonational spirituality center. She lives by herself in an apartment. She is taking theology classes at the local university as she told me she wished she had obtained a degree in theology before becoming a Sister. Ok fine so far I guess… but then it started getting weird for me. She told me I should wait to become Catholic until I returned to the USA; my priest seemed too conservative, were her words. She said she knew priests who would tell me not to become Catholic at all and said she would put me in touch with them… that I should embrace being Jewish, “bloom where you’re planted” she said.

She recommended several spiritual books to me, and after researching them later on I found out none of the authors were Catholic. She recommended I study Buddhism and Hinduism. She said that God was more “pleased” with an atheist who was a fervent environmentalist than He was with a lukewarm Catholic. She said passion in life was the important thing, no matter what you were passionate about. She downplayed my interest in the rosary and Eucharistic Adoration. She openly admitted to not being happy with some of Pope Benedict’s policies.

Then the subject became spiritual directors, because I would like one… I told her I am speaking to my priest about various things, also the Sister who is teaching me catechism. To which she said, it was a “red flag” to her that my priest was giving me advice, and that I should not listen to him. She thought I should talk to a woman instead. So then I said, well what about the Sister who is teaching me? But when she found out the Sister is habited (she personally does not wear a habit) she recommended I not talk to her either. She gave me the name of a Sister she knows who is a university professor, saying she was a wonderful woman.

Well… fast forward about a week later, I spoke to the dear older priest who had helped me attend Catholic school. I had written him a letter a while back but decided to call anyhow. He was very happy to hear from me. I told him about my conversation with Sister and also the name of the Sister who is a professor who she recommended as a spiritual director. Well… Father said firstly, he used to have a lot of respect for the Sisters who taught me, but in recent years they had “gone off the deep end” (his words). He further said he would never send any young woman to any of them for spiritual direction. And then the most shocking part for me… he knows the Sister who is a professor, and he told me she does not attend mass! I was like wow… are you sure Father?? And he was sure as she has said so!! I was so stunned. He said she considers herself “beyond Catholicism”. So I said, “How can she still be a nun?” to which he replied, “Exactly!”. And then said he welcomed the Church’s investigation of American nuns…

This whole thing really saddens me. Not really anything to say about it, just I felt like venting. I really was shocked. I personally love mass and I can’t imagine a religious Sister NOT going to mass, its like a contradiction in terms.

I feel very fortunate to have the priest and Sisters I have here, that’s all I can say…

First: God has graced women with infallible intuition. You sensed something wrong because something IS wrong! She has lost her faith in the one true Church and has fallen prey to relativism. Pray for her! The vatican is making an “Apostolic Visitation” to some of the Holy Orders in the USA. Why? Exactly because of what you experienced. They have drifted from the truth and have embraced many worldly doctrines. As you know, the truth is greatly comforting. When you experience discomfort, something is wrong. Pray pray pray for her!

Also, if you believe in God, you also believe in the evil one. His vile purpose on this earth is to lead souls away fro truth and into his deception. You have just witnessed the fruits of his labors. Sister’s journey parallels that of Thomas Merton, who fell into Buddhism, and Fr. Anthony DeMello, who became a sort of new-ager and whose writings were denounced by the Vatican. This is stark evidence of the evil one who roams among us.

 

[grandfather]

I feel very fortunate to have the priest and Sisters I have here, that’s all I can say…

Judith,
The sister you spoke with has lost her faith, and so have many others. This is quite evident. They do not believe the things the Church teaches and has always taught. For some reason they try to maintain some Catholic identity and still call themselves Catholic, perhaps so they can use the credential to influence others. The same thing is going on in many parishes and Catholic universities here in this country and some others. There is a battle going on for the soul of the Church. You are right that this is sad, but you also can not be naive. The Catholic Church is full of saints and has its share of villians. She is attacked spiritually from within and without from the beginning. The authors of the New Testament said that wolves would come in among us, and this has been the case from the beginning. We also have Christ’s promises to be with us until the end of time and lead us into all truth.

When you first announced that you were going to a parish I was concerned that you fall into the hands of the wackos. That was immediately dispelled. You are in excellent hands. The ex-Catholic nun you spoke with in a way had the same concern, but from the opposite pole. She wanted to keep you from orthodox teaching.

What I have found is that there is no point in telling these folks what Church teaching is. They know it and reject it. They may be reconverted by God’s grace. The witness of love may redirect them. I don’t think dialogue and argument will, but I could be wrong.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

The sister you spoke with has lost her faith, and so have many others. This is quite evident. They do not believe the things the Church teaches and has always taught. For some reason they try to maintain some Catholic identity and still call themselves Catholic, perhaps so they can use the credential to influence others. The same thing is going on in many parishes and Catholic universities here in this country and some others.

I just think its sad mainly because I remember her as a very good teacher who made me believe that girls could major in science and succeed. I looked up to her tremendously. I hate to see her having lost the faith which I have just discovered. Really I think its such an amazing faith that I feel very sad for anyone who loses it. But I understand what you’re saying too.

grandfather:

There is a battle going on for the soul of the Church. You are right that this is sad, but you also can not be naive. The Catholic Church is full of saints and has its share of villians. She is attacked spiritually from within and without from the beginning. The authors of the New Testament said that wolves would come in among us, and this has been the case from the beginning. We also have Christ’s promises to be with us until the end of time and lead us into all truth.

Though CS Lewis never became Catholic, what you’re saying about battles reminds me of many of his writings. I can see a bit more now too why we pray to St. Michael the Archangel.

grandfather:

When you first announced that you were going to a parish I was concerned that you fall into the hands of the wackos. That was immediately dispelled. You are in excellent hands. The ex-Catholic nun you spoke with in a way had the same concern, but from the opposite pole. She wanted to keep you from orthodox teaching.

You don’t need to worry as if the church was “wacky” I never would have stuck around long. I can’t stomach that sort of thing and would have picked up on it right away. It would have fallen into the same category as other religions which I “tried” out. What Sister was chatting about was sort of New-Age-ish and that stuff has always given me the creeps, honestly. I am just very glad though my church and priest are good… I would like to think I would have continued to look for a better parish if I had a bad first experience, but who knows??
granfather:

What I have found is that there is no point in telling these folks what Church teaching is. They know it and reject it. They may be reconverted by God’s grace. The witness of love may redirect them. I don’t think dialogue and argument will, but I could be wrong.

Oh. Well that’s good to know as I had thought of calling her back and challenging her on the things she said… but maybe I will just pray for her.

 

[RLT]

Greetings Susan,
Inspiring story!
You will be a welcome addition to the Church Militant.
Dominus tecum.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

Thanks for the welcome!

 

[grandfather]

Oh. Well that’s good to know as I had thought of calling her back and challenging her on the things she said… but maybe I will just pray for her.

You will bring more grace into the world through prayer and your own personal devotions and holiness than through argument. God is the source of all grace. Human souls are the conduits or channels of grace. He uses us as His instruments as we make ourselves available. I used to pray for years outside an abortion clinic, until it closed. I also spent a lot of time in the Adoration Chapel. I can not explain in words, but I know the time in the chapel was more valuable. It did more good, not only for me, but others. I am not saying public prayer where babies are being murdered is not a good thing.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I mentioned the following brielfly in another thread a couple of weeks back, but its still been bothering me a fair bit. I was going to start a new thread but then I wasn’t certain which forum to post it in, so I will make it part of this thread instead. Its part of the “continuting saga” of my conversion anyhow, so it more or less belongs here.

As some of you know I’ve been contacting various people from my past, the Sisters and I knew and the one older priest who helped me go to Catholic school. All my dealings with them so far have been quite positive. There was one exception though… through my highschool principal, a Sister who I admire very much, I obtained the address and phone number of another Sister who taught me math. Same congregation, but she is now in a different diocese, and younger than my principal. Anyhow, I called her to catch up and chat. Like the other Sisters, she was very happy to hear from me. We had a very long conversation, nearly 2 hours! Good thing I have an excellent phone plan!

However, she said many things which confused me. It seems her beliefs about being Catholic are radically different than my own. I know I am just a catechumen still, but I am no dummy. The things she said just didn’t add up and didn’t “feel right” to me. I was very conflicted after chatting with her.

She now works as the director of a nondemonational spirituality center. She lives by herself in an apartment. She is taking theology classes at the local university as she told me she wished she had obtained a degree in theology before becoming a Sister. Ok fine so far I guess… but then it started getting weird for me. She told me I should wait to become Catholic until I returned to the USA; my priest seemed too conservative, were her words. She said she knew priests who would tell me not to become Catholic at all and said she would put me in touch with them… that I should embrace being Jewish, “bloom where you’re planted” she said.

She recommended several spiritual books to me, and after researching them later on I found out none of the authors were Catholic. She recommended I study Buddhism and Hinduism. She said that God was more “pleased” with an atheist who was a fervent environmentalist than He was with a lukewarm Catholic. She said passion in life was the important thing, no matter what you were passionate about. She downplayed my interest in the rosary and Eucharistic Adoration. She openly admitted to not being happy with some of Pope Benedict’s policies.

Then the subject became spiritual directors, because I would like one… I told her I am speaking to my priest about various things, also the Sister who is teaching me catechism. To which she said, it was a “red flag” to her that my priest was giving me advice, and that I should not listen to him. She thought I should talk to a woman instead. So then I said, well what about the Sister who is teaching me? But when she found out the Sister is habited (she personally does not wear a habit) she recommended I not talk to her either. She gave me the name of a Sister she knows who is a university professor, saying she was a wonderful woman.

This whole thing really saddens me. Not really anything to say about it, just I felt like venting. I really was shocked. I personally love mass and I can’t imagine a religious Sister NOT going to mass, its like a contradiction in terms.

(

Judith,
When I was growing up in the 50’s I attended a Catholic grade school taught by a very strict order of sisters. You wouldn’t believe how strict. And very, very traditional–full habits, large rosaries worn on the outside of their garments, very strict Catholic. Now, almost 50 years later, I cannot believe they are the same order! I will say that they do attend Mass, but they combine their Christianity with various eastern and New Age type spirituality. They discarded the habit for street clothes and you cannot even tell they are sisters. They have regular celebrations on the solstices, teach Reiki, Yoga (and not just the exercises, but the spirituality part), etc. I am appalled when I look at their retreat offerings. I would not go to one of them, I could not trust them to lead me spiritually, whereas in my formative years they taught me orthodox Catholicism.

 I find it so sad that they cannot find satisfaction in the rich spiritual heritage of the Catholic Church, a heritage which nourished people for 2000 years and from which our great Saints were formed. A spiritual heritage which is Christ-centered and not man or nature centered. In the Catholic Church God has provided something for everyone to be nourished and grow on, recognizing the uniqueness of each individual in their relationship to Him. We could explore this for a lifetime and not learn it all. There is no need to take paths which will ultimately lead us away from Christ by taking our focus off of Him and placing it on creatures and creation, instead of the Creator.

I really understand your distress at finding that your former mentor has taken such a path. I’ve seen mine do the same thing.

 

[jmcrae]

Judith, I am thinking that God placed you where you are right now (which seems as if it must be a place where the Catholics are very orthodox and very faithful), rather than in the United States, precisely in order that you will receive good Catechesis.

Perhaps it is His plan for you to be a teacher of the faith some day.

 

[Liraco]

Don’t worry about what might have been, rather give thanks for what HAS happened.

As for the dream thing, I’m sure anyone else would have seen something similar as it reflected a lot of what you’ve shown us thus far. As for the “pearls before swine part” I’d like to make a correction based on what you’ve added (glad to know I didn’t get it all right so it didn’t go to my head ) You said:

Oh. Well that’s good to know as I had thought of calling her back and challenging her on the things she said… but maybe I will just pray for her.

So it seems that indeed this applies not only to your atheist friend but also your friend who’s no longer Catholic. It’s not so much about “not wasting time” with non-believers (otherwise how would the seed have ever been planted in you?), but that your energies are best spent on something more fruitful. Namely what Grandfather rightly suggested: PRAYER.

Remember that the passage continues on to say: “lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces.” - Matthew 7:6 Applied to them, this means that even if you presented the beauty of the faith and the Church, they can’t discern any value in it! To take things a bit more literally, not only that but they could also turn violent or vicious with you (even if just verbally). Just as an earlier poster (grandfather?) had said how the Eucharist would have held little value to you before your journey, the same holds true for them until they begin theirs.

Since you’re still early in your faith, a “battle” with Sister would likely end up nowhere and might even make things worse. Same with your friend who still would likely want to hear nothing of the faith at the moment (thus the silence). So pray, and pray, and pray some more for them just like others did (and still do ) for you. May their hearts be open to Him and one day be led back home.

So rather than despair, use this newly found weapon (prayer) to help them and love them back for the love they once showed you! Oh, and keep your “shield” (your gift of discernment) always ready.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

Also, if you believe in God, you also believe in the evil one. His vile purpose on this earth is to lead souls away fro truth and into his deception. You have just witnessed the fruits of his labors.

I know Catholics believe in the devil (of course!), but it hasn’t really been covered in my catechism classes yet. Is it generally spoken about often? I know in many of the evangelical churches the devil is mentioned pretty much constantly but I haven’t noticed it much yet among Catholics, except in some of our prayers. Which is fine with me actually as I’m a bit uncomfortable with satan or the devil being named every second sentence or so. I’ve always thought mentioning someone’s name gives them power.

po18guy:

Sister’s journey parallels that of Thomas Merton, who fell into Buddhism, and Fr. Anthony DeMello, who became a sort of new-ager and whose writings were denounced by the Vatican. This is stark evidence of the evil one who roams among us.

So Thomas Merton is not an author I should be reading? Just curious. I flipped through a book of his at the library, then took it home but could not get into it. He was a trappist monk, correct?

 

[Susan_Calvin]

I find it so sad that they cannot find satisfaction in the rich spiritual heritage of the Catholic Church, a heritage which nourished people for 2000 years and from which our great Saints were formed. A spiritual heritage which is Christ-centered and not man or nature centered. In the Catholic Church God has provided something for everyone to be nourished and grow on, recognizing the uniqueness of each individual in their relationship to Him. We could explore this for a lifetime and not learn it all. There is no need to take paths which will ultimately lead us away from Christ by taking our focus off of Him and placing it on creatures and creation, instead of the Creator.

Very well said. I feel exactly the same way.
CB Catholic:

I really understand your distress at finding that your former mentor has taken such a path. I’ve seen mine do the same thing.

Yes. Its disheartening. I suppose though, as others have said, anyone can be deceived and lose their faith if they are not vilgilant. Its still bothering me but I am turning my upset into a special effort to pray for her. To whom much is given, much will be expected… and I think she falls into that category, being a consecrated religious. I worry about the state of her soul should she die. Of course we can never judge but considering that she is a religious, her whole life is supposed to be a constant prayer to God. If she has lost that and is only going through the motions, and leading others astray by her words and actions, well… may God have mercy on her soul.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

Judith, I am thinking that God placed you where you are right now (which seems as if it must be a place where the Catholics are very orthodox and very faithful), rather than in the United States, precisely in order that you will receive good Catechesis.

Yes I think you’re right… and to this particular parish as well. I have gathered, from chatting with locals lately that there are some parishes in this region which are not nearly as orthodox, but this particular diocese is. And my priest is very well regarded by many. He’s had a hand in several vocations to the priesthood, so I’m told. Its also extremely “interesting” to me, that I have discovered my priest has always been very inspired by Mother Teresa and the Missionaries of Charity, in fact he told me recently that Mother was part of the reason he became a priest in the first place. And to think I was not even meant to live in this part of the city at all… there was a mixup when I came here initially. The university was supposed to secure me an apartment in a much nicer area but somehow it was overlooked and I had to take what I could get… which was this neighborhood. Its not the best area of town, not the worst either but sort of a poor, working class area. Not where I would have chosen to be at all! The whole situation is very uncanny, for lack of a better word.

jmcrae:

Perhaps it is His plan for you to be a teacher of the faith some day.

Maybe! I’m far from that at this point but I would be honored.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

So it seems that indeed this applies not only to your atheist friend but also your friend who’s no longer Catholic.

Yes you’re right! I never thought of applying it to Sister. Duh.

Liraco:

Since you’re still early in your faith, a “battle” with Sister would likely end up nowhere and might even make things worse.

Yes, and the more I think about it also, it was arrogant of me to think I could take on a nun! Seriously though, regardless of her current beliefs, in a battle with Sister I would definitely be outgunned. She knows much more than I do of course… and I decided also it would be disrespectful in a certain way, unless I chose my words very carefully. I mean obviously I’m not a kid anymore but she is twice my age and still deserves my respect at least to an extent. I think praying for her is best as that is what she would do for me also… or used to do for me.

 

[chewchoo]

sadly many nuns don’t wear habits anymore. hopefully that doesn’t mean that all of them have fallen away from the faith, but i’m sure many have tho.

i recently took some classes for RCIA catecheists and the coordinator was a habitless nun as were three of the instructors. they all knew their stuff and didn’t sound anti-catholic in anyway (thank God), but one of my fellow students was a Felician nun, still in habit . she was so sweet, it was a privilege being able to sit at the same table with her all week.

i read a letter to the editor in OSV recently. the writer was discussing habitless nuns vs habited nuns. she said that those that wear habits are an open invitation for others that have spiritual questions. a nun in habit is readily recognized and nonthreatening. they are approachable; and people do. these nuns are sharing their faith just by the clothing that they wear! how beautiful!! i have also read recently that orders that still wear habits are having an increase of vocations, while those that don’t are declining.

 

[grandfather]

I know Catholics believe in the devil (of course!), but it hasn’t really been covered in my catechism classes yet. Is it generally spoken about often? I know in many of the evangelical churches the devil is mentioned pretty much constantly but I haven’t noticed it much yet among Catholics, except in some of our prayers. Which is fine with me actually as I’m a bit uncomfortable with satan or the devil being named every second sentence or so. I’ve always thought mentioning someone’s name gives them power.

 

[grandfather]

Yes, and the more I think about it also, it was arrogant of me to think I could take on a nun! Seriously though, regardless of her current beliefs, in a battle with Sister I would definitely be outgunned. She knows much more than I do of course…

 

[po18guy]

I know Catholics believe in the devil (of course!), but it hasn’t really been covered in my catechism classes yet. Is it generally spoken about often? I know in many of the evangelical churches the devil is mentioned pretty much constantly but I haven’t noticed it much yet among Catholics, except in some of our prayers. Which is fine with me actually as I’m a bit uncomfortable with satan or the devil being named every second sentence or so. I’ve always thought mentioning someone’s name gives them power.

We are surrounded by the power of the evil one. If there is a problem in our Church, it is that the negative side of eternity is not stressed enough. We rarely hear of hell and of the substantial amount of scripture dedicated to it - of the spirits of evil and the antichrist. It remains one of the two destinations of our souls. Father John Corapi advises us to know our enemy. Not to obsess on him, but to have a healthy knowledge of and disdain for him and his power. To ignore him is to allow him to draw nearer to you.

I do not want to alarm you at this point. But, the evil one does not sleep and is constantly attempting to lead us away from Christ. However, that same evil has many weaknesses, and his attacks can be defeated. This is a situation in which knowledge of the enemy is good.

So Thomas Merton is not an author I should be reading? Just curious. I flipped through a book of his at the library, then took it home but could not get into it. He was a trappist monk, correct?

Yes. There is a point at which his writings began to diverge from Catholicism. That point is fairly clear, but his doubts crept in slowly, so it is difficult to say with precision what is good or bad. A lot of gray area there. That is enough to make me nervous. This references the influence of evil in leading the faithful astray. Vigilance is the answer. The Eucharist is our best weapon against evil. The vigilance you exercise at Adoration is wonderfully effective.

 

[Liraco]

Yes, and the more I think about it also, it was arrogant of me to think I could take on a nun! Seriously though, regardless of her current beliefs, in a battle with Sister I would definitely be outgunned. She knows much more than I do of course…

The mental image of you “taking on a nun” made me laugh. I guess since they tend to be so peaceful it seems so out of character to imagine one in a fight.

On the serious matter, it would seem rather that Sister has forgotten a lot of what she once knew. I don’t see how she can be conscious of the Truth and still follow a lie. Still, you were right in feeling that this course of action wasn’t proper (not right now anyway, unless a future situation presents itself).

I think it was Bishop Fulton Sheen who said “Win an argument, and you lose a soul.” As grandfather said though, if you do talk to her again and speak from the heart, then you could very well help her see the light. It’s not about proving who’s right or wrong, nor even worrying about hurting another’s feelings, but about doing and saying what’s right and with love.

On what Po just said, there are certainly a lot of attempts by the enemy to lead one astray. I think though, that you’ve been blessed with a gift of discernment because you rightly felt when someone was leading you to something untrue (you even could tell it from the Sister who others may have actually trusted but you clearly felt uneasy about). He’s not called the “father of lies” for nothing (making lies seem like truth, and truths to be false), so don’t stop praying to keep yourself strong.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

i read a letter to the editor in OSV recently. the writer was discussing habitless nuns vs habited nuns. she said that those that wear habits are an open invitation for others that have spiritual questions. a nun in habit is readily recognized and nonthreatening. they are approachable; and people do. these nuns are sharing their faith just by the clothing that they wear! how beautiful!!

Its funny you mention this, because I was saying this very same thing to Sister … she doesn’t wear a habit of course. But I said to her if I personally was a Sister, I would want to be “visible” to others so they would not only know I was a Sister but also have the opportunity to approach me, ask me questions about the faith, etc… at least, that makes sense to me. Same way as a priest dressing as a priest, so people know who he is…

She on the other hand though, believes the habit makes her less approachable. We discussed it for quite some time and I really don’t get it. If you don’t wear a habit, no one knows you are a nun in the first place, so *no one *will approach you! The Sister who teaches me catechism wears a habit, and the couple of times I have been out with her (we went to the grocers together lol) people smile and occasionally approach her. Seeing her in the shops was a blessing for those people. If she was wearing street clothes she would blend in as an “average” shopper and there would be no chance for evangelization, etc.