THE CAFETERIA IS CLOSED at St. John the Baptist School, Cost Mesa CA

[fix]

Penny Plain:

Is our Church a museum for saints or a hospital for sinners?

A hospital for sinners which implies one is seeking care, not killing the physicians, saying the medicine is poison and offering to cure folks by bleeding them to death.

Also, unrepentent sinners have no right to lead others astray. We have no right to expose our children to immoral situations under the guise that we are all sinners.

 

[fix]

Penny Plain:

How are we being persecuted? Is the Know-Nothing Party resurgent in Buffalo? Are priests tarred and feathered in Ithaca? Do the streets of Elmira run ankle-deep in the blood of the Faithful? Perhaps so, but the mainstream media has neglected to report it.

All I see is that people are (gasp!) disagreeing with us! The horror!

The martyrs who were decapitated or burned alive for our faith would laugh their heads off at the notion that we are being persecuted.

At least the non-decapitated ones would…

Ever hear of white martyrdom?

 

[SusanL]

Penny Plain:

How are we being persecuted? People are (gasp!) disagreeing with us! The horror!

The martyrs who were decapitated or burned alive for our faith would laugh their heads off at the notion that we are being persecuted.

At least the non-decapitated ones would…

They’re not just disagreeing with us. That would be amicable. Also, persecution comes in many different forms. The persecution is already going on in a much larger scale. I’m thinking more of what is going on in Canada and how the gay parades that go on in Philadelphia are handled concerning Christians.

However; there is a sort of persecution going on at that school. Banging on the priest’s door by a mob is not a simple disagreement. I have speculation on what else is probably going on but I’ll leave that out.

The martyrs wouldn’t laugh. They would say “press on.”

 

[SusanL]

Penny Plain:

How are we being persecuted? Is the Know-Nothing Party resurgent in Buffalo? Are priests tarred and feathered in Ithaca? Do the streets of Elmira run ankle-deep in the blood of the Faithful? Perhaps so, but the mainstream media has neglected to report it.

…

Come on. You’re smarter than that. Let’s keep this discussion on level.

 

[YinYangMom]

SusanL:

No, they’re not. People’s conduct influences everything about them.

If I am honest in small things, then I will be honest in big things.

Let’s be honest then…

Everything

around people influences their conduct.

Being surrounded by Catholic teaching, influences a person to either embrace or reject such teachings.

Being surrounded by physical or verbal abuse influences a person to either become an abuser or not.

Being surrounded by secular media views of relationships - family, extended family, intimate, etc. - influences a person to either embrace or reject such views.

Being surrounded by conservative political views or liberal ones, influences a person to embrace one or the other - or reject them both.

Being surrounded by sexual abuse or being raised as a tom-boy influences a young woman’s view of herself in relation to others, most make the transition after hormones kick in, others do not, and most lesbians have been sexually abused somewhere in their past, so research states.

As for men’s tendency toward homosexuality, research also shows many of them were molested in their youth by either a relative (cousins, uncles, etc.) or trusted friend, teacher, priest, advisor. What happened to them and around them influenced their conduct afterward.

 

[fix]

YinYangMom:

Everything around people influences their conduct.

Very true. If I allow my children to play at houses where the parents smoke pot, or read pornography or have it on the tv is that a good idea? That the parents are sinners, as we all are, in no way justifies exposing my children to sin. We have taken one or two bible verses and self interpreted them and created an entire false theology that justifies tolerating sin.

 

[YinYangMom]

SusanL:

No, they’re not. People’s conduct influences everything about them.

If I am honest in small things, then I will be honest in big things.

Let’s be honest then…

Everything

around people influences their conduct.

Being surrounded by Catholic teaching, influences a person to either embrace or reject such teachings.

Being surrounded by physical or verbal abuse influences a person to either become an abuser or not.

Being surrounded by secular media views of relationships - family, extended family, intimate, etc. - influences a person to either embrace or reject such views.

Being surrounded by conservative political views or liberal ones, influences a person to embrace one or the other - or reject them both.

Being surrounded by sexual abuse or being raised as a tom-boy influences a young woman’s view of herself in relation to others, most make the transition after hormones kick in, others do not, and most lesbians have been sexually abused somewhere in their past, so research states.

As for men’s tendency toward homosexuality, research also shows many of them were molested in their youth by either a relative (cousins, uncles, etc.) or trusted friend, teacher, priest, advisor. What happened to them and around them influenced their conduct afterward.

 

[TarAshly]

fix:

Tar,

Are we to believe you are more frightened by the pointed truth that was posted than the lies that are promoted by the “gay” community?

In all honesty the deviant acts are not talked about enough. The natural repulsion one experiences when they hear about these things are minimized when the accent is removed from the acts and spun to be seen solely as happy, gay, folks.

Fix,
Youre on that list to, of people whos ideas of Catholic charity frighten me. i am more frightened by the hatred and sick late of compassion that people like you and dandelion call charitable. when i have children they will be taught to love not hate. they will know the world as it is, and i will bring them up in the faith so that they are equipped to handle it. I wont hide them under my apron to prevent them from seeing and knowing the world. i wont raise them to hate and fear what is different. they will be (God willing) good, Catholic, kind, charitable people with love for ALL of Gods children, not just the ones certain people deem worthy.

 

[fix]

SusanL:

Exactly and if people truly believe what Jesus teaches us, then we would not back down on this issue. I don’t think that people really have internalized the idea of obedience to God, loving God so much that we don’t want to offend him and the real and scary existence of hell. If we seriously internalized this, our actions would be so very different.

We are more concerned with offending our fellow man, then offending God. You are correct about truly believing. To stand firm and accept the cross may mean being called intolerant or anti Christian. We live in a crazy world of moral relativism. Feelings equal truth to many. Opinions equal conscience to many.

 

[fix]

TarAshly:

Fix,
Youre on that list to, of people whos ideas of Catholic charity frighten me. i am more frightened by the hatred and sick late of compassion that people like you and dandelion call charitable. when i have children they will be taught to love not hate. they will know the world as it is, and i will bring them up in the faith so that they are equipped to handle it. I wont hide them under my apron to prevent them from seeing and knowing the world. i wont raise them to hate and fear what is different. they will be (God willing) good, Catholic, kind, charitable people with love for ALL of Gods children, not just the ones certain people deem worthy.

I feel sorry for you. You seem confused. You throw around the word hate so you may justify lukewarmness. The only thing I hate is sin. For all your talk about not shielding your children it would seem from your words you would shield them from the truth.

If you are so open to “differences” why are you so closed minded to my words?

 

[SusanL]

YinYangMom:

SusanL:

No, they’re not. People’s conduct influences

everything about them.

If I am honest in small things, then I will be honest in big things.

Let’s be honest then…

Everything

around people influences their conduct.

Being surrounded by Catholic teaching, influences a person to either embrace or reject such teachings.

Being surrounded by physical or verbal abuse influences a person to either become an abuser or not.

Being surrounded by secular media views of relationships - family, extended family, intimate, etc. - influences a person to either embrace or reject such views.

Being surrounded by conservative political views or liberal ones, influences a person to embrace one or the other - or reject them both.

Being surrounded by sexual abuse or being raised as a tom-boy influences a young woman’s view of herself in relation to others, most make the transition after hormones kick in, others do not, and most lesbians have been sexually abused somewhere in their past, so research states.

As for men’s tendency toward homosexuality, research also shows many of them were molested in their youth by either a relative (cousins, uncles, etc.) or trusted friend, teacher, priest, advisor. What happened to them and around them influenced their conduct afterward.

YYM, how does this contradict what I said?

 

[YinYangMom]

TarAshly:

Fix,
Youre on that list to, of people whos ideas of Catholic charity frighten me. i am more frightened by the hatred and sick late of compassion that people like you and dandelion call charitable. when i have children they will be taught to love not hate. they will know the world as it is, and i will bring them up in the faith so that they are equipped to handle it. I wont hide them under my apron to prevent them from seeing and knowing the world. i wont raise them to hate and fear what is different. they will be (God willing) good, Catholic, kind, charitable people with love for ALL of Gods children, not just the ones certain people deem worthy.

TarAshley,
I understand what you’re saying about how you’re raising your children. I have raised mine the same way - public schools, extended visits with relatives who don’t think like us and are non-Catholic, allow them to make friends with all sorts of people, religious or not. Love and Charity are the key…as are the opportunities to properly instruct them on the ways of Christ.

My kids are 15 and 17, well-balanced, faithful Catholics and they thank us frequently for not sheltering them. They have more confidence in being able to face life issues when they are on their own this way because they know right from wrong, and they understand that many people don’t have a clue - and that makes it their responsibility to help enlighten them - MOSTLY through their actions, not their words - and compassion is at the top of that list. They know the distinction between sin and sinner and how to handle each.

However, my bottom line has always been with them that the Vatican has the final say on matters of confusion. Our culture is so far removed from Rome that when the Pope speaks - personally or through his bishops - some times our family step back in surprise because it seems so out of step with our understanding up to that point.

Stem cell research and the Schiavo case was a good example. It would have been easier for hubby and me to allow my children to continue their resistance to the idea that both were not allowed by the Church but I sought out the teachings, printed them, studied them and shared them with them so they at least understand WHY the Church takes the position it does and they at least RESPECT the Church for holding Her ground on the matter. The challenge now becomes ours - to come to embrace that teaching fully for ourselves.

We have homosexual friends and relatives in our larger social circle. We don’t visit with them frequently at all - mostly due to geographical reasons - but they are part of the circle so the topic of how to be charitable and compassionate without compromising the Church or our faith has been around for many years with us.

Be careful not to dismiss what Fix and the other passionate believers here are saying - just because the tone they use and the choice of words is not easy on the eyes or mind. Yes, their expression of their passion is frightening - I agree, and feel the same way about several posters here, but most of them are still speaking the Truth, so try to get past the approach and go to the core of their arguments.

If you read the Vatican documents on the subject of scandal and same sex marriage, etc. you will see that they are right and you should take some time to come to terms with that - and find a better, more compassionate way to impart that Truth to your children.

This is coming from a CA raised cradle Catholic who, until I spent time at this board, was pro-choice, pro-stem cell research, and pro-removing the tube from Terry. I didn’t like the way many people presented their views here, but they cited very good links to Catholic teaching which helped me to change my position - not just for MY soul, but I do it more for the souls of my children. I do not want to be responsible for them falling into the trap of becoming a cafeteria catholic. Hubby and I were raised as cafeteria catholics but for the sake of my children I am willing to change. Hubby’s having a harder time, but for the sake of the children he does not go against what I teach them in front of them. He reserves his debates for when they are out of the house or we are alone.

Peace.

 

[fix]

TarAshly:

Fix,
Youre on that list to, of people whos ideas of Catholic charity frighten me. i am more frightened by the hatred and sick late of compassion that people like you and dandelion call charitable. when i have children they will be taught to love not hate. they will know the world as it is, and i will bring them up in the faith so that they are equipped to handle it. I wont hide them under my apron to prevent them from seeing and knowing the world. i wont raise them to hate and fear what is different. they will be (God willing) good, Catholic, kind, charitable people with love for ALL of Gods children, not just the ones certain people deem worthy.

49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

 

[Penny_Plain]

SusanL:

Come on. You’re smarter than that. Let’s keep this discussion on level.

Me? I am dumb as a stump.

You said we were being “persecuted.” I merely wanted to know if I need to run out and buy fireproof underwear for my family. Apparently the answer is “no,” which is a great relief because of chafiing issues.

 

[YinYangMom]

SusanL:

YinYangMom:

SusanL:

No, they’re not. People’s conduct influences

everything about them.

If I am honest in small things, then I will be honest in big things.

YYM, how does this contradict what I said?

You said:

People’s conduct influences everything about them

as if to say a homosexsual’s conduct influenced them to become homosexual. It wasn’t the homosexual’s conduct which influenced them, most of the time it is something which happened to them (another person’s conduct toward that person) which influenced that person to live the homosexual lifestyle.

So I’m stating that the** opposite** of your statement is actually more truthful:

It’s not **a **person’s conduct which influences that person.
It is everything going on around a person (by others to or toward that person) which influences **that **person’s conduct.

Do you not see the distinction?

 

[SusanL]

TarAshly:

Fix,
Youre on that list to, of people whos ideas of Catholic charity frighten me. i am more frightened by the hatred and sick late of compassion that people like you and dandelion call charitable. when i have children they will be taught to love not hate. they will know the world as it is, and i will bring them up in the faith so that they are equipped to handle it. I wont hide them under my apron to prevent them from seeing and knowing the world. i wont raise them to hate and fear what is different. they will be (God willing) good, Catholic, kind, charitable people with love for ALL of Gods children, not just the ones certain people deem worthy.

Tar, I commend you on wanting to love all people and teaching your children to do the same. That’s what I want for my kids as well.

It seems to me that it could be a matter of when we introduce the evil of the world to our children. Of course, we can’t hide them from it completely. Even with our best efforts that would be impossible. And, of course, how much do we expose them to.
I don’t want to be exposed to much of the evil and I’m an adult. I don’t want it in my face and I am very offended by what other mothers (not you, Tar) deem appropriate for their girls (usually clothing or lack of).

My husband and I strive to keep the level of “worldly” values at a minimum and when we can’t avoid it, we use it to teach.

The results so far have been interesting. Our kids dress modestly. My oldest daughter is very religious and prays often. Their grades are excellent. They don’t use foul language. They have a lot of compassion for the poor and downtrodden. (In fact, the kids participate in activities for the poor). Because of this, they have no friends on our street. I have heard this from so many other moms. We have to “import” their friends because the kids on the street are mean-spirited and foul-mouthed. (And we live in a “nice” neighborhood!!).

Other moms have reported the same problem. Now, how does this relate to the thread?

Behaviour that offends God and those that embrace it has been kept away from them. Or minimalized. Even the tv is restricted.

I’m definitely not saying to keep the children of gays out of school or alienate them because of hate. Focus is on the wrong place if anyone thinks that.

I’m saying that the those who have custody of these children must abide by the authority of the school and not create scandal. And that authority is God.

 

[fix]

YinYangMom:

Be careful not to dismiss what Fix and the other passionate believers here are saying - just because the tone they use and the choice of words is not easy on the eyes or mind. Yes, their expression of their passion is frightening - I agree, and feel the same way about several posters here, but most of them are still speaking the Truth, so try to get past the approach and go to the core of their arguments.

Thank you for your thoughtful insight. It is true that I and others may come across as strident, but that is because for so long our culture has tolerated things that are beyond reason. IMO, it is also true our culture has become effete in defending the truth. We all have different personalities and different ways of communicating. I am not saying my presentation is always as gentle as some desire, but life is not always gentle and easy.

The same folks who clamor for accepting everything have no problem rejecting the truth unless it comes in a form they like and in a tone they like.

 

[Penny_Plain]

fix:

A hospital for sinners which implies one is seeking care, not killing the physicians, saying the medicine is poison and offering to cure folks by bleeding them to death.

Also, unrepentent sinners have no right to lead others astray. We have no right to expose our children to immoral situations under the guise that we are all sinners.

If these six-year-old children are doing these things, then I agree they should be excluded. If the six-year-old children of parents who are remarried without a “decree of nullity” are doing these things, then, yes, cast them into outer darkness and make them go to public school. We do not disagree on these points.

I got into this thread, Fix, when you stated that you would exclude every child whose parents were living in immoral situations (again, I forget your phrasing). Before God, I do not see how having my child in a classroom with another child whose parents are remarried without a decree of nullity exposes my child to an “immoral situation.” I do not see how having my child in a classroom where one of those parents volunteers exposes my child to an “immoral situation.”

I do not even see how having my child in a classroom where a homosexual parent volunteers exposes him to an “immoral situation.” I mean, I suppose I could imagine circumstances, but (Dandelion’s overly vivid imagination aside), I don’t think the parents involved here are trying to recruit six-year-olds to homosexuality or leaving “blood and feces” on the classroom carpet or anything.

Heck, don’t they even attend Mass? Aren’t their children baptized? They’re sending their kids to a Catholic school. Sounds to me like they’re seeking care, although they may have some reservations about the extent to which the doctors know what they are doing. Anyone who’s ever been in a hospital will understand and appreciate the extension of the analogy, which I thought of all by myself despite being dumb as a stump.

Fix, here’s my problem: I agree that people of goodwill can hold different opinions on this couple. They seem politically active, and it’s at least possible that they’re doing this for political motives. (Although the forum’s response to Michael Schaivo has left me a tad untrusting of our fellow posters’ evaluation of human motives and character.) You’d go far beyond this couple and this situation, though, to create a sterile environment that excludes children of the divorced, unwed, and otherwise irregular to create a perfect environment for your child…

Of all things, I think the life of the Buddha is instructive as to how those sorts of things work out. Maybe you should trust God a little more?

And, no, I do not know what “white martyrdom” is, but I’ll take it over being burned alive or shot full of arrows. I await enlightenment.

 

[SusanL]

YinYangMom:

SusanL:

YinYangMom:

You said:

People’s conduct influences

everything about them

as if to say a homosexsual’s conduct influenced them to become homosexual. It wasn’t the homosexual’s conduct which influenced them, most of the time it is something which happened to them (another person’s conduct toward that person) which influenced that person to live the homosexual lifestyle.

So I’m stating that the** opposite** of your statement is actually more truthful:

It’s not **a **person’s conduct which influences that person.
It is everything going on around a person (by others to or toward that person) which influences **that **person’s conduct.

Do you not see the distinction?

Ahh. I understand now. My goof. I didn’t mean that their conduct was what made them homosexual. no no.

I was just responding to Penny Plain’s post. She was saying how people are much more than their conduct. I was just saying that a person’s conduct is who they are. If we really believe what God says in the Bible, then we will struggle to make our behaviour conform to his will. Even in the little things when no one is looking. If we don’t believe, then we won’t.

And our conduct does influence us. (Ask any dieter if they have ever given up on losing weight because of their conduct or someone who insists that “that’s just the way they are.”)

This doesn’t alter the strength of outside influences, of course.

 

[Penny_Plain]

SusanL:

I’m saying that the those who have custody of these children must abide by the authority of the school and not create scandal. And that authority is God.

Susan, I am glad things are going well for you and yours. I pray they continue to do so, as I hope you will pray for me and mine.

I am somewhat less than entirely convinced that the school speaks with the authority of God in this matter.