THE CAFETERIA IS CLOSED at St. John the Baptist School, Cost Mesa CA

[SusanL]

Penny Plain:

Susan, I am glad things are going well for you and yours. I pray they continue to do so, as I hope you will pray for me and mine.

I am somewhat less than entirely convinced that the school speaks with the authority of God in this matter.

Hi Penny Plain. Yes, I will pray for you and yours. (and I mean this sincerely and in a good way).

When I talk about the authority being God, I say this in reference to Biblical scriptures. The school is Catholic and is supposed to revere and abide by them. And accept them as the authority of the school.

 

[fix]

Penny Plain:

If these six-year-old children are doing these things, then I agree they should be excluded. If the six-year-old children of parents who are remarried without a “decree of nullity” are doing these things, then, yes, cast them into outer darkness and make them go to public school. We do not disagree on these points.

I got into this thread, Fix, when you stated that you would exclude every child whose parents were living in immoral situations (again, I forget your phrasing). Before God, I do not see how having my child in a classroom with another child whose parents are remarried without a decree of nullity exposes my child to an “immoral situation.” I do not see how having my child in a classroom where one of those parents volunteers exposes my child to an “immoral situation.”

I do not even see how having my child in a classroom where a homosexual parent volunteers exposes him to an “immoral situation.” I mean, I suppose I could imagine circumstances, but (Dandelion’s overly vivid imagination aside), I don’t think the parents involved here are trying to recruit six-year-olds to homosexuality or leaving “blood and feces” on the classroom carpet or anything.

Heck, don’t they even attend Mass? Aren’t their children baptized? They’re sending their kids to a Catholic school. Sounds to me like they’re seeking care, although they may have some reservations about the extent to which the doctors know what they are doing. Anyone who’s ever been in a hospital will understand and appreciate the extension of the analogy, which I thought of all by myself despite being dumb as a stump.

Fix, here’s my problem: I agree that people of goodwill can hold different opinions on this couple. They seem politically active, and it’s at least possible that they’re doing this for political motives. (Although the forum’s response to Michael Schaivo has left me a tad untrusting of our fellow posters’ evaluation of human motives and character.) You’d go far beyond this couple and this situation, though, to create a sterile environment that excludes children of the divorced, unwed, and otherwise irregular to create a perfect environment for your child…

Of all things, I think the life of the Buddha is instructive as to how those sorts of things work out. Maybe you should trust God a little more?

And, no, I do not know what “white martyrdom” is, but I’ll take it over being burned alive or shot full of arrows. I await enlightenment.

Penny,

Please see post 136 again. Fr. Serpa explains the sin of scandal well. Abscence of scandal is not sterile, it may be holy, but not sterile. My position is that of what the CC teaches. Scandal should be avoided and those gulity of it ought not to be around children.

I find it amusing that you are arguing that a Catholic school should have no standards? Is a Catholic school just a public school with uniforms?

Should the parents who want to send their children to a Catholic school have no responsibilities to the Church, or the other children, or the parish? I mean is it so extreme for anyone to expect that the parents of children at a Catholic school would be obligated to lead a life free of scandal? Is that too much to ask? Is it now a burden to be without scandal?

 

[fix]

Penny Plain:

(Although the forum’s response to Michael Schaivo has left me a tad untrusting of our fellow posters’ evaluation of human motives and character.)

I do not want to get off track, but what are you implying? The husband had his wife euthanized? That is murder.

 

[SusanL]

YinYangMom:

Be careful not to dismiss what Fix and the other passionate believers here are saying - just because the tone they use and the choice of words is not easy on the eyes or mind. Yes, their expression of their passion is frightening - I agree, and feel the same way about several posters here, but most of them are still speaking the Truth, so try to get past the approach and go to the core of their arguments.

and find a better, more compassionate way to impart that Truth to your children.

Peace.

Wow. Whew. I apologize if my posts and tone are frightening or hard on the eyes and mind. I will have to study this. I try to say things kindly but sometimes there is no easier way to say it. It is best to say things with love but that is very hard to properly convey in writing. My apologies if my tone has been too rough.

I really do care.

 

[Penny_Plain]

fix:

I find it amusing that you are arguing that a Catholic school should have no standards? Is a Catholic school just a public school with uniforms?

I’m not sure where I said that, Fix. In fact, I’m pretty sure I didn’t. I don’t agree that a Catholic school should have your standards. That is not the same thing as saying it should have no standards at all.

fix:

Should the parents who want to send their children to a Catholic school have no responsibilities to the Church, or the other children, or the parish?

No. Um…wait. Yes? The way you’ve phrased it makes it hard to answer.

Yes, anyone who voluntarily joins a community has responsibility to the other membes of the community. I have never said they do not. However, we disagree on what those responsibilities are, or maybe on what constitutes a failure to live up to them.

fix:

I mean is it so extreme for anyone to expect that the parents of children at a Catholic school would be obligated to lead a life free of scandal? Is that too much to ask?

Yes, it is.

A Catholic school is for the children, not the parents. I would think it entirely appropriate for the Knights of Columbus to exclude the divorced or the homosexual if they feel that including them is wrong. (I’d disagree, but they can do that if they want to). The children of gay parents, divorced parents, single parents are the children who need the medicine our Church and its schools offer more than anyone else. Their parents may be riff-raff. Their parents may be scum. Their parents may have mislaid their decree of nullity. Their parents may be rotten to the core and utterly devoid of the hope of salvation.

But somehow, for some reason, the parent or parents thought that our schools and our Church had something to offer their children. We should not care why those children are there. We should care that we have the opportunity to reach them and teach them and, by doing so, bring them to salvation. Heck, maybe they’ll even drag their parents along for the ride. Nobody reforms overnight.

 

[fix]

Penny Plain:

I’m not sure where I said that, Fix. In fact, I’m pretty sure I didn’t. I don’t agree that a Catholic school should have your standards. That is not the same thing as saying it should have no standards at all.

No. Um…wait. Yes? The way you’ve phrased it makes it hard to answer.

Yes, anyone who voluntarily joins a community has responsibility to the other membes of the community. I have never said they do not. However, we disagree on what those responsibilities are, or maybe on what constitutes a failure to live up to them.

Yes, it is.

A Catholic school is for the children, not the parents. I would think it entirely appropriate for the Knights of Columbus to exclude the divorced or the homosexual if they feel that including them is wrong. (I’d disagree, but they can do that if they want to). The children of gay parents, divorced parents, single parents are the children who need the medicine our Church and its schools offer more than anyone else. Their parents may be riff-raff. Their parents may be scum. Their parents may have mislaid their decree of nullity. Their parents may be rotten to the core and utterly devoid of the hope of salvation.

But somehow, for some reason, the parent or parents thought that our schools and our Church had something to offer their children. We should not care why those children are there. We should care that we have the opportunity to reach them and teach them and, by doing so, bring them to salvation. Heck, maybe they’ll even drag their parents along for the ride. Nobody reforms overnight.

Penny,

I am sorry you are so jumbled. No one is calling anyone any names. It is not about how sinful one is. It is about scandal. Not scandal in secular useage, but scandal in that public sinful situations lead others into error or away from the faith.

Now, we are not speaking about mass or the Church we are speaking about a private school. It is about the children. We are not excluding as if it were a country club. We are excluding for the sake of the other children and with the hope it may awaken the parents who are giving scandal.

In the situation here the two men want to volunteer in the school. The want to go to events as a mother and father. That is unacceptable. The other children and their parents have rights. Why are their rights to be subservient to the men who are rebelling?

 

[fix]

**2284 **Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

 

[TPJCatholic]

The school is called to defend the faith–period.

 

[fix]

TPJCatholic:

The school is called to defend the faith–period.

Defend and teach our kids how to be holy. Why is catholic school now to become a social experiment?

 

[TPJCatholic]

fix,

I am sick of the PC crowd demanding that every institution must fall under their spell. Christianity has always been counter cultural, and it remains so today. Catholic schools should always teach the kids the faith without exception, and part of that teaching is taking a strong stand against clearly known sins (it makes no difference what the sin is). Jesus said, “Go and sin no more,” He did not say sin all you want.

 

[David_Oatney]

YinYangMom:

TarAshley,
I understand what you’re saying about how you’re raising your children. I have raised mine the same way - public schools, extended visits with relatives who don’t think like us and are non-Catholic, allow them to make friends with all sorts of people, religious or not. Love and Charity are the key…as are the opportunities to properly instruct them on the ways of Christ.

My kids are 15 and 17, well-balanced, faithful Catholics and they thank us frequently for not sheltering them. They have more confidence in being able to face life issues when they are on their own this way because they know right from wrong, and they understand that many people don’t have a clue - and that makes it their responsibility to help enlighten them - MOSTLY through their actions, not their words - and compassion is at the top of that list. They know the distinction between sin and sinner and how to handle each.

However, my bottom line has always been with them that the Vatican has the final say on matters of confusion. Our culture is so far removed from Rome that when the Pope speaks - personally or through his bishops - some times our family step back in surprise because it seems so out of step with our understanding up to that point.

Stem cell research and the Schiavo case was a good example. It would have been easier for hubby and me to allow my children to continue their resistance to the idea that both were not allowed by the Church but I sought out the teachings, printed them, studied them and shared them with them so they at least understand WHY the Church takes the position it does and they at least RESPECT the Church for holding Her ground on the matter. The challenge now becomes ours - to come to embrace that teaching fully for ourselves.

We have homosexual friends and relatives in our larger social circle. We don’t visit with them frequently at all - mostly due to geographical reasons - but they are part of the circle so the topic of how to be charitable and compassionate without compromising the Church or our faith has been around for many years with us.

Be careful not to dismiss what Fix and the other passionate believers here are saying - just because the tone they use and the choice of words is not easy on the eyes or mind. Yes, their expression of their passion is frightening - I agree, and feel the same way about several posters here, but most of them are still speaking the Truth, so try to get past the approach and go to the core of their arguments.

If you read the Vatican documents on the subject of scandal and same sex marriage, etc. you will see that they are right and you should take some time to come to terms with that - and find a better, more compassionate way to impart that Truth to your children.

This is coming from a CA raised cradle Catholic who, until I spent time at this board, was pro-choice, pro-stem cell research, and pro-removing the tube from Terry. I didn’t like the way many people presented their views here, but they cited very good links to Catholic teaching which helped me to change my position - not just for MY soul, but I do it more for the souls of my children. I do not want to be responsible for them falling into the trap of becoming a cafeteria catholic. Hubby and I were raised as cafeteria catholics but for the sake of my children I am willing to change. Hubby’s having a harder time, but for the sake of the children he does not go against what I teach them in front of them. He reserves his debates for when they are out of the house or we are alone.

Peace.

**If ever there were a testimonial to the importance of the Catholic Answers Forums, it is that the things posted here haved helped YYM, and probably many others, come to see just WHAT the Catholic Point of View on issues really is, why we, as Catholics ought to take those positions, and how to spread that point of view in a compassionate way to others.

These boards have been a Godsend for the spread of the truth.
**

 

[fix]

Penny Plain:

A Catholic school is for the children, not the parents. I would think it entirely appropriate for the Knights of Columbus to exclude the divorced or the homosexual if they feel that including them is wrong. (I’d disagree, but they can do that if they want to). The children of gay parents, divorced parents, single parents are the children who need the medicine our Church and its schools offer more than anyone else. Their parents may have mislaid their decree of nullity. Their parents may be rotten to the core and utterly devoid of the hope of salvation.

But somehow, for some reason, the parent or parents thought that our schools and our Church had something to offer their children. We should not care why those children are there. We should care that we have the opportunity to reach them and teach them and, by doing so, bring them to salvation. Heck, maybe they’ll even drag their parents along for the ride. Nobody reforms overnight.

See, all this is what we are talking about. You minimize so many grave sins as if it were of no consequence to immortal souls. On the one hand you claim the school is only about the children, then you claim by allowing the rebellious to send their kids they may be reformed. The school is for educating the children in the faith. The parents needs should be addressed elsewhere.

You also confuse single parents with those in adulterous relationships and homosexual relationships.

Where would you draw the line and why? Can two pornographers volunteer at he school? What about the president of the local planned parenthood chapter, or one who runs a swingers club? The local Mafia Don? All these folks think they are correct and have no need to change. If the kids ask them about their life they will say they are good citizens and good role models. All ok?

 

[TPJCatholic]

Better yet, should pornography be taught in Catholic schools? It is a sound analogy because when a Catholic school shows support for so-called gay couples, they are teaching that living a gay life is okay.

 

[Ptero9]

“An Orange County Catholic school that angered some parents by allowing a gay couple to enroll their two boys last year has drafted a policy that would forbid the men to appear as a couple (emphasis added) at school functions, according to a memo distributed to teachers”

According to the above quote which is from the original poster’s information, the school is not trying to keep the children out, but giving notice that they are no longer allowing the dad and his boyfriend to show up under the guise of two fathers!

I am trying to understand why y’all are discussing why the kids aren’t allowed when they are being allowed admission into the school.

Does anyone agree or disagree that the fathers should not be allowed to show up together as “two dads” of a child?

I thought that is what this thread was about, no?

…carry on…

 

[fix]

“An Orange County Catholic school that angered some parents by allowing a gay couple to enroll their two boys last year has drafted a policy that would forbid the men to appear as a couple (emphasis added) at school functions, according to a memo distributed to teachers”

According to the above quote which is from the original poster’s information, the school is not trying to keep the children out, but giving notice that they are no longer allowing the dad and his boyfriend to show up under the guise of two fathers!

I am trying to understand why y’all are discussing why the kids aren’t allowed when they are being allowed admission into the school.

Does anyone agree or disagree that the fathers should not be allowed to show up together as “two dads” of a child?

I thought that is what this thread was about, no?

…carry on…

I think you have a point. The one issue is that the current situation is such the child is enrolled. I would hope the “fathers” would not be allowed to present themselves in a way as to add more confusion to these young consciences.

The other issue is that the entire problem could have been prevented by prohibiting the child from enrolling in the first place. Even better would be to stop homosexuals from having custody!!!

 

[Ptero9]

“The other issue is that the entire problem could have been prevented by prohibiting the child from enrolling in the first place. Even better would be to stop homosexuals from having custody!!!”

The prohibition gets sticky. For all we know the child was admitted under the pretense of having a single parent.

I agree too that homosexuals shouldn’t be given custody of children, nor should single parents be able to adopt, but those are side issues and battles long ago lost in american culture, yes?

Do catholic schools give the parents any guidelines upon enrollment that let the parents know what catholic education implies in terms of moral teachings?

 

[TPJCatholic]

Ptero9,

Yes, we gave away the culture, yet it must be taken back, for the sake of all souls.

 

[YinYangMom]

If ever there were a testimonial to the importance of the Catholic Answers Forums, it is that the things posted here haved helped YYM, and probably many others, come to see just WHAT the Catholic Point of View on issues really is, why we, as Catholics ought to take those positions, and how to spread that point of view in a compassionate way to others.

These boards have been a Godsend for the spread of the truth.

aww, shucks, David
Thanks.

 

[YinYangMom]

“An Orange County Catholic school that angered some parents by allowing a gay couple to enroll their two boys last year has drafted a policy that would forbid the men to appear as a couple (emphasis added) at school functions, according to a memo distributed to teachers”

According to the above quote which is from the original poster’s information, the school is not trying to keep the children out, but giving notice that they are no longer allowing the dad and his boyfriend to show up under the guise of two fathers!

I am trying to understand why y’all are discussing why the kids aren’t allowed when they are being allowed admission into the school.

Does anyone agree or disagree that the fathers should not be allowed to show up together as “two dads” of a child?

I thought that is what this thread was about, no?

…carry on…

Penny Plain is focusing on the kids as if they are being persecuted for the sins of their fathers…
the rest of us are trying to help her see the kids aren’t affected by the school’s decision.

 

[YinYangMom]

Ptero9:

Do catholic schools give the parents any guidelines upon enrollment that let the parents know what catholic education implies in terms of moral teachings?

Giving guidelines about what is being taught with regard to morals isn’t an issue here, either.

The school went beyond that by singling these men out to ask them to conform to Catholic norms - by not presenting themselves at school events as a couple, and beyond that by restricting them from participating in the classroom with the other students because it would send an inappropriate message to them that their family situation is condoned and accepted by the Catholic church.

The one area I would agree with Penny on this approach, however, is that once this step was taken with this family, the playing field was opened and all other known non-conforming Catholic parents should have the same restrictions placed on them…Particularly those parents who are using contraception (and trust me, people know who they are in a setting like that), those who have remarried without having the previous marriage annulled, etc. Embracing and accepting them into the classrroom is equally as confusing - specifically for their own children.