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buffalo
Guest
Yeah we do. I’ll start with Confession. That is therapy and humility. Secular - AAA, weight watchers, marriage counseling…to name a few.
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The_Barrister
Guest
I have a spiritual director… I make that recommendation to everyone!
My cross is different from yours, but, perhaps, no less onerous. We all need help, and my spiritual director has been most helpful to me, especially in times of crisis.
I’m not recommending therapy or reeducation - I see the smoke of Satan in many of those things, as well-meaning as the people who administer them may be. I believe you can find your way with proper spiritual direction and discernment.
I make no judgments about you as a person, or the state of your soul. I was simply responding to a fellow Christian in need. I sincerely hope that my statements might be of some service to you on your journey.
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maggsdad
Guest
To all the people who claim that we are not supposed to judge. We are absolutely supposed to judge.We are called as christians to judge the action (not the heart) of others who profess to be christians and lovingly correct the person, not publicly to embarass but personally out of love and concern for the persons soul.
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CPB
Guest
Dear Barrister,
I thank you for your honest thought provoking. So many people only seem to think others need help it is both wise and beautiful to see our own flaws and how we need to draw ourselves closer to God through any means possible. I too value spiritual directors and retreats. All can benefit from these. And to respond to Mr. Buffalo. Again I meant no disrespect. All Catholics should go to confession regularly and I applaud you for doing so yourself. It might be easier for me as a gay man to see the hypocrisy in Christ’s Church. While he and the Church are flawless we are not. Many people see the evils of the gay lifestyle but are unwilling to see remarriage or living out of marriage in the same context. While they do indeed have secular programs for the other sins mentioned one walk through the shopping mall shows most are not going or do not adhere to the natural laws of our bodies. All life is a trial and all our sufferings can if we spend time in prayer and meditation can bring us closer to the fullness of Christ. In the mean time I need to thank God for allowing me to suffer with him, to help bear the cross of humanity. It has, I believe drawn me closer to the Kingdom of God and also helped me to be compassionate.
Just a note, when Mother Theresa was alive she never proselytized with words…only actions. She never tried to convert people to Christianity or Catholicism for that matter. She allowed or at least trusted God to do so. We should not worry so much about whether a person has remarried or lives a wrong lifestyle…instead we should put on the cross of Christ and be Christ. Love not hate. Trust God to change the hearts and lives of those around us. Pray for them and minister to them with kindness and generosity.
Yours in Christ,
cpb
I thank you for your honest thought provoking. So many people only seem to think others need help it is both wise and beautiful to see our own flaws and how we need to draw ourselves closer to God through any means possible. I too value spiritual directors and retreats. All can benefit from these. And to respond to Mr. Buffalo. Again I meant no disrespect. All Catholics should go to confession regularly and I applaud you for doing so yourself. It might be easier for me as a gay man to see the hypocrisy in Christ’s Church. While he and the Church are flawless we are not. Many people see the evils of the gay lifestyle but are unwilling to see remarriage or living out of marriage in the same context. While they do indeed have secular programs for the other sins mentioned one walk through the shopping mall shows most are not going or do not adhere to the natural laws of our bodies. All life is a trial and all our sufferings can if we spend time in prayer and meditation can bring us closer to the fullness of Christ. In the mean time I need to thank God for allowing me to suffer with him, to help bear the cross of humanity. It has, I believe drawn me closer to the Kingdom of God and also helped me to be compassionate.
Just a note, when Mother Theresa was alive she never proselytized with words…only actions. She never tried to convert people to Christianity or Catholicism for that matter. She allowed or at least trusted God to do so. We should not worry so much about whether a person has remarried or lives a wrong lifestyle…instead we should put on the cross of Christ and be Christ. Love not hate. Trust God to change the hearts and lives of those around us. Pray for them and minister to them with kindness and generosity.
Yours in Christ,
cpb
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buffalo
Guest
**From the Catechism:
1829 **The *fruits *of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion: Love is itself the fulfillment of all our works. There is the goal; that is why we run: we run toward it, and once we reach it, in it we shall find rest.
**1435 **Conversion is accomplished in daily life by gestures of reconciliation, concern for the poor, the exercise and defense of justice and right, by the admission of faults to one’s brethren, fraternal correction, revision of life, examination of conscience, spiritual direction, acceptance of suffering, endurance of persecution for the sake of righteousness. Taking up one’s cross each day and following Jesus is the surest way of penance.
1829 **The *fruits *of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion: Love is itself the fulfillment of all our works. There is the goal; that is why we run: we run toward it, and once we reach it, in it we shall find rest.
**1435 **Conversion is accomplished in daily life by gestures of reconciliation, concern for the poor, the exercise and defense of justice and right, by the admission of faults to one’s brethren, fraternal correction, revision of life, examination of conscience, spiritual direction, acceptance of suffering, endurance of persecution for the sake of righteousness. Taking up one’s cross each day and following Jesus is the surest way of penance.
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The_Barrister
Guest
In case this is directed to me, I will add that we judge actions, not the state of the person’s soul. To do the first is very Christian, as you point out; to do the latter is presumptious. That’s why I told CPB that “I make no judgments about you as a person, or the state of your soul.” THAT is the judgment we leave to God.
To CPB: You state, “It might be easier for me as a gay man to see the hypocrisy in Christ’s Church. While he and the Church are flawless we are not.”
First, I assume by “hypocrisy in Christ’s Church” that you are referring to the fallible people, not the infallible institution. The teachings of the Church are clear, but are not always carried out as well as they should be.
Second, and I mean this only as a possible point of reflection, you may wish to cease referring to yourself as a “gay man.” Ask yourself - are you identifying yourself as a gay man for your benefit, or for the benefit of those around you? Why? Are you being fair to yourself and your beliefs?
When you self-identify you are immediately categorizing yourself, and you are thereby assuming a lot of baggage you don’t necessarily have to carry. Why not, for example, think of yourself as a “chaste” man?
Just a thought. Again, may God bless you on your journey.
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Mandi
Guest
If a man steals my TV can I judge him to be a theif?
(This is a statement - not a question, the answer is yes)
Judging is one of the most misunderstood words in the English language and the Catholic Church - Perhaps someone could start a new thread for open discussion.
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CPB
Guest
Yes Barrister we are flawed not the Church…though that does not mean the priests. They to, even though they are agents of the Church are flawed men. Men capable of great love and mercy but also much pain and sorrow.
I call myself a gay man just like I call myself an American. Both are not really who I am they are just a part of what I am here on this earth. I am a child of God and my family is the entire human race…but in the mean time that doesn’t mean I want to be a citizen from China (not that there is anything wrong with that!). Don’t worry about me labeling myself. I know who I am and I have a great resource in my Church…
**Fraternal: **
1 a) Of Brothers b) Brotherly
2 Of or constituting a fraternity
I call myself a gay man just like I call myself an American. Both are not really who I am they are just a part of what I am here on this earth. I am a child of God and my family is the entire human race…but in the mean time that doesn’t mean I want to be a citizen from China (not that there is anything wrong with that!). Don’t worry about me labeling myself. I know who I am and I have a great resource in my Church…
**Fraternal: **
1 a) Of Brothers b) Brotherly
2 Of or constituting a fraternity
- Biol. of or being a twin developed from separately fertilized ova.
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Mandi
Guest
St. Francis of Assisi was walking in the woods with good Brother Juniper. Brother Juniper said, “How happy the birds in the air, the animals in the grass, and the fish in the brook are. Father Francis, why is it that men are not as happy as that?”
“Well, Brother, it is this way,” answered the saint: “the birds, the animals, and the fish are made for this world; that is why they are so happy. Men are not made for this world; that is why they cannot be happy here.”
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The_Barrister
Guest
Exactly right. You can judge him for what he’s done, punish him for doing it, and counsel him not to do it again. But you cannot presume he’ll go to hell for it.
Our responsibility to “judge” is to love, and by *love * I mean that we must judge in order to turn the person back onto the right path. To judge without mercy is to condemn, and that is the province of God.
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Mandi
Guest
The Barrister:
Bravo! perfectly said!!!
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CPB
Guest
Thank you Mandi for that beautful quote. I will add that to my list!
I have no problem Barrister with your answer as long as you look and treat people all equally. Someone who is remarried has not committed any worse a sin then the homosexual. Both are unnatural and both are not God’s will. As with all the sins mentioned in 1 Cor we can not always be fundmental. We obviously don’t think Mr. Reagan is in Hell…why then would we presume the gay man is too. Jesus love all and accepts all if they willingly come to him. Though that does not say we can do what we want. We love Jesus we should try and be like him. I am against gay marriage in a church…and I am against remarrage in a church unless it has been annuled. I am glade the Catholic faith is equal in treating people on this topic. I cannot say that about all Christian faiths. They pick and choose and that’s wrong.
I have no problem Barrister with your answer as long as you look and treat people all equally. Someone who is remarried has not committed any worse a sin then the homosexual. Both are unnatural and both are not God’s will. As with all the sins mentioned in 1 Cor we can not always be fundmental. We obviously don’t think Mr. Reagan is in Hell…why then would we presume the gay man is too. Jesus love all and accepts all if they willingly come to him. Though that does not say we can do what we want. We love Jesus we should try and be like him. I am against gay marriage in a church…and I am against remarrage in a church unless it has been annuled. I am glade the Catholic faith is equal in treating people on this topic. I cannot say that about all Christian faiths. They pick and choose and that’s wrong.
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The_Barrister
Guest
I try, as best I can, to conform myself to the magisterium and catechism of the Catholic Church. I don’t presume to know how God ranks the order of sin, except for a) mortal; b) venial; and c) potentially unforgiveable (sins against the Holy Spirit).
I therefore don’t presume that an active, unchaste homosexual is any *more * sinful than a remarried (without annulment) Catholic. No one should.
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Mandi
Guest
The Barrister:
Our Lady of Fatima said more people go to hell because of sins of the flesh than any other reason.
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The_Barrister
Guest
I have no reason to disagree with that!
I suspect that is so because there is a far higher percentage of people engaged in sins of the flesh without contrition than, perhaps, there are remarried Catholics without prior annulment…
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CPB
Guest
Mandi, thank you for that beautiful quote. I will add it to my collection! Barrister, in the matter of judging a person…be careful. We must judge by God’s standards and that means all sins equal. If you are going to teach the act of homosexuality is a sin so is remarriage. If Mr. Reagan can go to heaven because he loved Jesus even though in the eyes of the Church he is an adulterer then so can a homosexual. Look at 1 Cor and review the list. Most of us fall into those sins so when you judge remember Christ and the women caught in the act of adultery. The one to cast the first stone let him be without sin. None of us can measure up to those standards so be careful when judging. You don’t know the heart. So many gay people are in pain and it is often the loudest that is hurting the most. They don’t need further rejection. They need compassion and love…not someone yelling at them pushing there lifestyle down the gay persons thoughts. They are going to feel resentment and be further driven from Christ never being given the chance to see who Christ is…and that will be all of our faults because we are not mirroring the life of Jesus. Yes he told the woman at the well not to sin but he still loved her and talked to her. Through his actions and life Christ changed lives…let Christ change our lives. Your words will only bring hatred and sorrow but your actions well that my friend can truly be the action of God.
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buffalo
Guest
All sins are not equal. There are mortal and venial sins.
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CPB
Guest
We know not all sins are equal. The sins I’m talking about are in the same list as sexual perversion. Looking at women the wrong way & remarring someone is not a venial sin. They are sins of the flesh and are no better or worse then unchaste homosexual lifestyles. We all basically I think feel the same way. The point is simple…it is not fare or right to put someone down and look the other way on everyone else. It is also not right to throw stones at others since we all have sin in our lives. I just challenge people to love gay people and minsiter to them through actions not just words…or more times than not…no words. Words can hurt people and drive them away because often our own personal prejudces come out. Being the hand of God through action can sometimes change more people in the long run. I no people mean well but well to simply put it the right wing Christian can often be a pain in our butt…and that leaves a distastful feeling in everyones mouth. It gives the image of being selfrightous and that is a sin. Judging in those standards is wrong!!!
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buffalo
Guest
I hate to say it CPB but I must. This all sounds so politically correct.
It is an uphill battle when many push there agenda of sin on us. Persons like you get caught in the middle.
Soddom and Gamorrah were severly punished by God for their sin, I didn’t see the same treatment for the other sins you mentioned. That seems to put it a cut above the others. It violates natural law also. Adam and Eve’s children had incestual relations - permitted by God until he revoked this permission. So you see they are all not equal.
It is an uphill battle when many push there agenda of sin on us. Persons like you get caught in the middle.
Soddom and Gamorrah were severly punished by God for their sin, I didn’t see the same treatment for the other sins you mentioned. That seems to put it a cut above the others. It violates natural law also. Adam and Eve’s children had incestual relations - permitted by God until he revoked this permission. So you see they are all not equal.
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CPB
Guest
Sodom and Gomorrah? Do you even know what that story is about? Yes, it involves sexuality but it also is so much more. When the angles of light came to visit Lot (because Abraham asked for favor from God) he took them in. In Aerobic country the nights become very cold and if they would not have been in shelter they would have died. The town was filled with much hatred and cruelty. The town’s men did not take to strangers and were not filled with hospitality…which is a Christian requirement! The town’s men came to Lots door to rape the men who were actually God’s Holy Angles. Lot even offered his virgin daughters instead. Then men didn’t care about sex they wanted to show disrespect and shame. Often in ancient Aerobic countries you would shame men by having intercourse and treating them like a woman. Women as you know were more or less thought of as property…so that was a great insult. Likewise women who were caught in the act of adultery there punishment was to have all the towns men stand over her and ejaculate on her…to show her how dirty she was. Sodom and Gomorrah was an evil city and there sins were not limited to homosexuality but also a host sins just as great.
As for the politically correct thing…how is that so. I am not saying the act of homosexuality is right…it was not God’s intent. I’m gay and I can see that. I am saying that many sins that you and everyone else makes everyday in God’s eyes are just as wrong but our hearts are so filled with personal prejudges that we make excuses to hate and treat people wrongly. I will stand in judgment for what I’ve done and so will you. So will all those who have sinned. If you look at the reading below it talks of a great deal more than gay people…and I don’t see people with mean signs picketing those who have committed adultery. I don’t see people saying mean thing about President Reagan. No, they sit and talk about what a great man he was…what a great Christian. WHY? Why does the drunkard get off…we’ve ALL done that. My college years were a blur. How many of us steal form the office. How many of us talk on the phone at work instead of doing our jobs, are we not stealing from our employer. He’s paying for our time and we are not giving it. What about those who talk ill about others. My goodness we hear that in Church. Don’t talk to me about politically correct things. You are not the one who feels persecuted everyday. You are not the one who is made to feel shame and disgust for themselves. Do you realize how many gay men are drunks and drug addicts? They run away from there problems because they feel NO love from anyone in the Christian community. All they feel is hatred. Do tell me about being politically correct. We all have crosses to bear and that’s life. I’m lucky I feel the Holy Spirit in my heart but it isn’t because of the church goers around me. I just happen to have parents who love me and prayed for me. They don’t tell me how wrong I am they lived the life of Jesus and I want to imitate them. They are my hero’s my inspiration. Many in the Church…and I love them I really do…but they are so mean and cruel. They ignore you and pretend your not even there. Do you know what that feels like? Worrying about what we are teaching your children, well if you pray for them and live the example of Christ you will teach them. But if you speak in anger or hatred…you will teach them that. I know you didn’t mean anything by your comment but put yourself in our shoes. Walk my path and maybe then you will be able to minister to gay people.
*Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. *
I Cor 6:9-10
As for the politically correct thing…how is that so. I am not saying the act of homosexuality is right…it was not God’s intent. I’m gay and I can see that. I am saying that many sins that you and everyone else makes everyday in God’s eyes are just as wrong but our hearts are so filled with personal prejudges that we make excuses to hate and treat people wrongly. I will stand in judgment for what I’ve done and so will you. So will all those who have sinned. If you look at the reading below it talks of a great deal more than gay people…and I don’t see people with mean signs picketing those who have committed adultery. I don’t see people saying mean thing about President Reagan. No, they sit and talk about what a great man he was…what a great Christian. WHY? Why does the drunkard get off…we’ve ALL done that. My college years were a blur. How many of us steal form the office. How many of us talk on the phone at work instead of doing our jobs, are we not stealing from our employer. He’s paying for our time and we are not giving it. What about those who talk ill about others. My goodness we hear that in Church. Don’t talk to me about politically correct things. You are not the one who feels persecuted everyday. You are not the one who is made to feel shame and disgust for themselves. Do you realize how many gay men are drunks and drug addicts? They run away from there problems because they feel NO love from anyone in the Christian community. All they feel is hatred. Do tell me about being politically correct. We all have crosses to bear and that’s life. I’m lucky I feel the Holy Spirit in my heart but it isn’t because of the church goers around me. I just happen to have parents who love me and prayed for me. They don’t tell me how wrong I am they lived the life of Jesus and I want to imitate them. They are my hero’s my inspiration. Many in the Church…and I love them I really do…but they are so mean and cruel. They ignore you and pretend your not even there. Do you know what that feels like? Worrying about what we are teaching your children, well if you pray for them and live the example of Christ you will teach them. But if you speak in anger or hatred…you will teach them that. I know you didn’t mean anything by your comment but put yourself in our shoes. Walk my path and maybe then you will be able to minister to gay people.
*Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. *
I Cor 6:9-10
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