The 'Jesus Never Mentioned Homosexuality' Argument

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CPB:
You are not the one who feels persecuted everyday. You are not the one who is made to feel shame and disgust for themselves. Do you realize how many gay men are drunks and drug addicts?

…Many in the Church…and I love them I really do…but they are so mean and cruel. They ignore you and pretend your not even there. Do you know what that feels like?
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First, I am sorry you have been treated as an “untouchable.” And I agree with you and also find it saddening that gays are singled out, while others (remarriage, adultery, etc.) are given accolades.

I believe we need to make a distinction between the person and the sinful actions. We all face various temptations, and it has been given to us to refuse them.

Have you ever read the book “Beyond Gay” by David Morrison?
He is a chaste gay man, and the book is basically an autobiography.

MC
 
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Dave:
Those of us of faith accept fully that the entire cannon of scripture is inspired of God, however those looking for reasons to attack Christians over their views of homosexuality always cite this arguement:

Quote:
“Jesus never mentions homosexuality in his ministry, so it can’t be that big of a deal…”

How do you answer this question to people that ‘discount’ the validaty of anything written outside of the Gospels?
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Jesus himself confirmed the spoken statements of the Apostles, saying that to reject these oral statements is rejecting him:
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)
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He again sent his Apostles to preach, not to write:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching [verbally in the greek: didasko] them to obey everything I have commanded you."(Matthew 28:19-20)
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Jesus himself never wrote anything, that we know of, except something in the sand in the presence of the woman caught in adultery. So we have the example of Jesus himself.
 
He also never mentiones abortion, or contraception, taxes, voting, taking kids to school or other things that also may not be important…

The Bible does say that God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve though, there must have been a reason for that… :hmmm:
 
Jesus never mentioned cannibalism but I am not about to change my diet.
 
CPB, I want to respond to say I believe I understand your position. You are who you are - God created you and you are not looking for simpathy or help. It was hard for me to undertand the bible passage where Jesus heals the blind man and they ask, was it his sins that caused him to be blind. Jesus responded, “No”, it was his position in life to glorify God. This was always hard for me growing up, but the older I get, the more I understand it.

CPB, you glorify God by your faithful, devout fellowship. We are all the Church, each baptised Christian.

I also find it interesting that others are recommending various support groups when you have the ultimate support group in the Sacraments! The Church.

I will pray for you. I will pray for us all. I will pray for understanding, love and christian compassion.

God bless you.
 
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Dave:
Those of us of faith accept fully that the entire cannon of scripture is inspired of God, however those looking for reasons to attack Christians over their views of homosexuality always cite this arguement:

How do you answer this question to people that ‘discount’ the validaty of anything written outside of the Gospels?
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Those who only accept the four gospels are presenting a false dilemna. Try showing them John 10.34-36, “Jesus answered them:'Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods? If he called them gods to whom the word of God was spoken AND THE SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE BROKEN; Do you say to him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am th Son of God?”
Jesus Himself said scripture cannot be broken. Some versions say scripture cannot be set aside. Anyway, I hope that helps.
 
In the end each of us must decide if we are going to eat from the tree of life. We all are capable of grievous sins but we are also called to be mindful of our own faults. All men are sinful and all of us depend upon the mercy of Christ and the sacrifice of the Cross. What sins are so great they will keep us from Christ is something none of us can answer. We are responsible for our own sins and it is up to each of us to invite the Holy Spirit into our lives and for the guidance/ wisdom to resist temptation. Is a non-chaste homosexual not going to be allowed in heaven? I don’t know…and neither do you. Will the person who has remarried after there divorce not be allowed into heaven…again we don’t know. Will those who slander others or talk grievous about there life not be allowed into heaven…we don’t know. What I do know however is anyone who invites Christ into there lives and begs for his mercy and forgiveness will be allowed into heaven. Jesus said this and the Word of God does not lie.

Can you think of anything more beautiful then the reading below? It is here that we as Christians get at the heart of Jesus. It is here that we see the foreshadowing of his divine mercy and sacrifice for us all. Christ came to this world to testify to the truth and He will be the one to caste judgment to the sinner. Is Christ telling the woman it’s acceptable for her to continue with her sin…no. Is Christ telling her she will live in netherworld never to behold the face of God…no. It is true that there are scriptures that discuss judgment and when it’s acceptable and not but we see here a new interpretation on God’s wisdom of when it’s appropriate to judge those whom we feel are in grave sin. I’m not asking anyone of you to accept the lifestyle of the active homosexual. I am however asking you to be Christ to them. God is not calling us to understand why we must do what we must. He is however asking us to love the unlovely. If someone sins in front of you don’t throw stones at them reminding them how much they do not measure up to God’s mercy. You don’t either. Living the Word…inviting Christ into your heart and lives will be the greatest witness the sinner can have. It will also be the greatest witness to your children. Would you ostracize an adulterer at your table? Probably not…since there are so many. Instead be kind to them and don’t give them a list of books to read or tell them they need therapy or help. My goodness, that show of love is as unwanted as if you would hold a picket sign and scream ungodly things. We are all sinners and you do not treat others that way…don’t treat the homosexual that way. For many they do not know why they do it. It is part of who they are and what the Evil One has done to them. Be love my friends…please. The Spirit of the Most High convicts them. Let the Spirit guide them and love them. Maybe the Spirit will use you as a tool…but pray about it before you speak. Don’t let your own hatred show through in your words and actions. Christ loves me and he loves you. Christ died for me and he died for you. I need his love and I seek his wisdom. I beg the Mother of God to guide me to Christ but I also beg her to guide you too. Compassion begins with you and I urge you to ask the Sprit to reveal to you and your heart your hatred. Think about what the sinner feels. Try to understand to them and you will be able to better minister to them.

John 8:3-11

Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery and made her stand in the middle. They said to him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” They said this to test him, so that they could have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with his finger. But when they continued asking him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he bent down and wrote on the ground. And in response, they went away one by one, beginning with the elders. So he was left alone with the woman before him. Then Jesus straightened up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She replied, “No one, sir.” Then Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you. Go, (and) from now on do not sin any more.”
 
Richard Lamb:
The Bible does say that God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve though, there must have been a reason for that… :hmmm:
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The Bible does not say that God created Richard Lamb either. He created Adam, Steve, John, Henry, Lola, Richard, Earl, Brunhilda, Larry Flint…

I don’t mind if people use the Genesis argument but the Adam and Steve comment is derogatory and it is not funny. If you feel the need to present this use God created “Man and Woman.” By the way I know a man named Eve.
 
Lev. 20:13 “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.” I don’t think the rules changed in the NT.
 
The Laws of Toevat still exist?

Leviticus 12:1 – 8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days alter giving birth to a bay and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl. Leviticus 11:1 – 12 talks about the many unclean animals that are an “abomination” onto us. Leviticus 19:19 forbids a husband from having intercourse with this wife during her menstrual period. Leviticus 19:19 forbids mixed breeding of various kinds of cattle, sowing various seed in your field or wearing a garment make from two different kinds of material. Leviticus 19:27 demands that you not round off the side growth of your head or the edges of your beard.

Leviticus 26: 14 - 16
14 "But if you do not heed me and do not keep all these commandments,
15 if you reject my precepts and spurn my decrees, refusing to obey **all my commandments ** and breaking my covenant,
16 then I, in turn, will give you your deserts. I will punish you with terrible woes–with wasting and fever to dim the eyes and sap the life. You will sow your seed in vain, for your enemies will consume the crop.
 
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Shibboleth:
The Bible does not say that God created Richard Lamb either. He created Adam, Steve, John, Henry, Lola, Richard, Earl, Brunhilda, Larry Flint…

I don’t mind if people use the Genesis argument but the Adam and Steve comment is derogatory and it is not funny. If you feel the need to present this use God created “Man and Woman.” By the way I know a man named Eve.
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First I would advice to lighten up,I am Puerto Rican, Catholic and Caucasian, wore Glasses while in high school and heave been the but of jokes all mi life, this has taught me to laugh at miself and do so frequently…I am living proof that God has a sence of humor, you should to:) …I also know guys named Sandy…

Thar is not the issue the issue is that…Hmosexuality is abberant behavious and thus should be called so…In a diplomatic fashion when possile of course…

I used Genesis to show how revelation teaches this…
 
Now…don’t you go telling Shibboleth how he should behave, think or feel! He has a right to his passions just like you and your undue judgment is not called for and your advice is obviously unwanted.

Thank you Shibboleth for your thought provoking responses. We are all one body and we all feed ourselves in the same communion line. All are sinners and imperfect. It is for this reason we cling to the promises of the Risen Lord. While I do not always agree with mankind and many of my fellow Christians behavior I realize Christ wants me to love not hate and abandoned myself to Holy Spirit allowing her to guide us into a fuller relationship and union with our Father in Heaven.

Maybe next time we can discuss why many theologians feel one of Noah’s children was a homosexual…and if that truly was the case he saved him too from the flood. I wonder if his name was Carol…or was it Pat, um no let’s say is Chris.
 
I really would be careful about theologians’ teaching authority. Much of what they come up with is speculative and imaginative. Teaching authority stops with the Bishop. Theologians do not have this authority.

I could probably find a theologian to agree with everything that is convenient to me if I wished.
 
While I do agree with you in the matters of conterversy or if you question the interpretation I don’t belive the priest is unable to ever comment on the scripture. He thoughts were harmless and they help the listerner to stretch there thoughts and go outside the box. I know my bishop incourages us to read the bible…and when do some we allow the Holy Spirit to guide us into deeper revelation. That however does not mean we have liberties to say the opposate of the Church. I’ve heard that stated many times on EWTN.

The scripture is meant more out of fun. You read below and think for yourself.

*Now Noah, a man of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of the wine, he became drunk and lay naked inside his tent. Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father’s nakedness, and he told his two brothers outside about it. Shem and Japheth, however, took a robe, and holding it on their backs, they walked backward and covered their father’s nakedness; since their faces were turned the other way, they did not see their father’s nakedness. When Noah woke up from his drunkenness and learned what his youngest son had done to him, he said: “Cursed be Caanan! The lowest of slaves shall he be to his brothers.” *
  • Genesis 8:20-25*
While, as Buffalo as said this is just a thought from a priest…and it does not mean it correct, the thought being that Caanon was looking at his father in the wrong way and the other two sons would not look at there father in that way. Either way the sons did not want to look at there fathers shame. That in itself is a leason worth learning. In the end the father shamed and cursed the son who did him wrong. God knew what Cannan was capable of and he saved him. He knows my flaws and he will save me too if I come to him on bended knee.
 
Hi, everyone ~

I just had to post to this topic. Last weekend I went on a retreat in the Detroit area (I have gone to this particular retreat center since 1973), and the Retreat Master had a discussion on Saturday night about this very topic. One thing that this priest said was that he is a theologian and the Church is going to have to take a different look at homosexuals and marriage. He said, “We need to change our thinking.” He made the argument that in old testament times they were not allowed to charge interest on any buying or selling and he said, “Look at the world today - globally everyone charges interest.” One woman yelled out that homosexuality is an abomination and this priest flatly disagreed!! He said that homosexual relationships promote fidelity which many marriages between a man and a woman are promoting infidelity. I was so hurt and so disturbed by this priest’s attitude and teaching (aren’t they supposed to be obedient to the teachings of the church??) that I almost feel like I should not be going on retreat again. I do not know whether or not something like this should be reported to the archdiocese. Does anyone have any ideas? Can the Church change its teaching on this issue? Isn’t it a moral issue which the Pope is infallible on? Protestant churches have changed and are continuing to change their thinking on this topic, and I pray that our church will never change their stance on this. I feel like this particular priest is a sheep in wolves clothing and I know there are many like him. Thank you for letting me “sound off” and God bless.

DeeMarie
 
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CPB:
Now…don’t you go telling Shibboleth how he should behave, think or feel! He has a right to his passions just like you and your undue judgment is not called for and your advice is obviously unwanted.

Thank you Shibboleth for your thought provoking responses. We are all one body and we all feed ourselves in the same communion line. All are sinners and imperfect. It is for this reason we cling to the promises of the Risen Lord. While I do not always agree with mankind and many of my fellow Christians behavior I realize Christ wants me to love not hate and abandoned myself to Holy Spirit allowing her to guide us into a fuller relationship and union with our Father in Heaven.

Maybe next time we can discuss why many theologians feel one of Noah’s children was a homosexual…and if that truly was the case he saved him too from the flood. I wonder if his name was Carol…or was it Pat, um no let’s say is Chris.
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I think lightening up is somethng we can all do, yes all sinners are imperfect but part of the life of a christian to breack from sin not to merely accept it. AS for th echildren of Noah my memory is that that it wazs their children and spouses and from what I know homosexual unions were not called marriages then either…
 
Faithful 2 Rome:
Regardless…dont expect a round of applause and a conversion from whatever homosexual you explain this to… like a dyed in the wool far left liberal, they will most likely IGNORE your proof, explanation, well reasoned debate, and instead of addressing what you said, they will go flit off to some other point, topic, etc… to try and support their viewpoint…
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…and generally resort to calling you a variety of names and assigning you a variety of labels. Ah yes, the good hearted and always tolerant left strike again.

My favorite is when they say “your being closed minded.”

Oh, and its not just the issue of homosexuality, the same behavior can be witnessed when discussing “inclusive” language revisions to sacred scripture, women priests, contraception, abortion, etc.etc.etc.
 
Do you really think all homosexuals are single and live in unnatural relationships? In my youth the majority of the men I had relations with were married with children. While as a man I now understand how wrong that was and have since gone to confession for those mistakes it does not dilute the fact that many men & women go into such unions to try and escape who they are and to try and conform to society’s wishes. While I can respect and honor the teachings on the Church for celibacy with homosexuality I am against many of the “rehabilitating” experiences and or retreats that gay men and women are subjected too. I also further understand why DeeMarie feels somewhat distraught but you have to understand DeeMarie not everything the pope says or issues is infallible. There is actually only a few things he has written that the Church considers infallible. Certain requirements must be met for that to be true. As for Church teaching on what is infallible you have to look at Tradition and tradition. There is a difference. Priestly celibacy for example is a tradition. It is not necessarily biblically based but is a Church tradition and the Pope can change that. History shows that we have had priests and even Popes that were married. Though it is agreed upon the best interest of the Church is for this tradition to be in place but not our Greek brothers in faith can marry as long as they were married before they entered the priesthood. So whether or not the Church will change its opinion on gay marriage, and I am confident it won’t, it is up to the Church on realizing what is Tradition and what is tradition.

Again I urge you DeeMarie to be more compassionate for your gay brothers. Even if you don’t agree or understand put yourself into there shoes and try to figure out how they are feeling. Ask the Spirit of God into your heart and stop whining about how hurt you feel. You’re not the one who has picket signs coming at you telling you you’re a degenerate and the spawn child of Satan. For me this is a tender issue and one that I don’t always see black and white and I no for a fact many Church leaders don’t see it black and white. I’ve known some compassionate priests and Bishops and maybe some people reading this could learn from that.
 
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CPB:
Do you really think all homosexuals are single and live in unnatural relationships? In my youth the majority of the men I had relations with were married with children. While as a man I now understand how wrong that was and have since gone to confession for those mistakes it does not dilute the fact that many men & women go into such unions to try and escape who they are and to try and conform to society’s wishes. While I can respect and honor the teachings on the Church for celibacy with homosexuality I am against many of the “rehabilitating” experiences and or retreats that gay men and women are subjected too. I also further understand why DeeMarie feels somewhat distraught but you have to understand DeeMarie not everything the pope says or issues is infallible. There is actually only a few things he has written that the Church considers infallible. Certain requirements must be met for that to be true. As for Church teaching on what is infallible you have to look at Tradition and tradition. There is a difference. Priestly celibacy for example is a tradition. It is not necessarily biblically based but is a Church tradition and the Pope can change that. History shows that we have had priests and even Popes that were married. Though it is agreed upon the best interest of the Church is for this tradition to be in place but not our Greek brothers in faith can marry as long as they were married before they entered the priesthood. So whether or not the Church will change its opinion on gay marriage, and I am confident it won’t, it is up to the Church on realizing what is Tradition and what is tradition.

Again I urge you DeeMarie to be more compassionate for your gay brothers. Even if you don’t agree or understand put yourself into there shoes and try to figure out how they are feeling. Ask the Spirit of God into your heart and stop whining about how hurt you feel. You’re not the one who has picket signs coming at you telling you you’re a degenerate and the spawn child of Satan. For me this is a tender issue and one that I don’t always see black and white and I no for a fact many Church leaders don’t see it black and white. I’ve known some compassionate priests and Bishops and maybe some people reading this could learn from that.
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Fist and foremost the teachings regarding homosexuality were not taught first by this or any other Pope for that matter, they come to Us since Creation (Remeber Adam and Steve:) )

Second a person of Homosexual tendency that does Marry is doing a good thing. And if some of the treatment methods have been bad then we must change the treatment methods not the churches teachings. I prefer not to see thing in black of white but in truth and false, with the knowledge that the truth no matter how painful (It took Jesus to the Cross) will always set you free…:bowdown:
 
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DeeMarie:
Hi, everyone ~

I was so hurt and so disturbed by this priest’s attitude and teaching (aren’t they supposed to be obedient to the teachings of the church??) that I almost feel like I should not be going on retreat again. I do not know whether or not something like this should be reported to the archdiocese. Does anyone have any ideas? Can the Church change its teaching on this issue? Isn’t it a moral issue which the Pope is infallible on? Protestant churches have changed and are continuing to change their thinking on this topic, and I pray that our church will never change their stance on this. I feel like this particular priest is a sheep in wolves clothing and I know there are many like him. Thank you for letting me “sound off” and God bless.

DeeMarie
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The New Testament did not change or release us from Natural Law. The homosexual act is always contrary to Natural Law.

What you have here is a Priest who by his own authority is confusing people like yourself. Yes, it should be reported and others should be discouraged from attending. If no one attends, he has no audience.

Private interpretation of Scripture is exactly what Protestantism is about. So you can see why they are changing their views. So the truth is muddled, distorted or just plain overlooked.

Just don’t go to any retreat, qualify the speakers or you will run into this again. Today every speaker claims to be an authority.
 
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