The 'Jesus Never Mentioned Homosexuality' Argument

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**Matthew 5:16-19 :: **King James Version (KJV)
**Matthew 5
**16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, **one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. **19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

**Jesus came **not to destroy the law or the prophets, but to fulfill, and not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from the law, till all be fulfilled, and if a person break one of the least important laws or commandments, and teaches men likewise, he will be called least in the kingdom of heaven (on earth), but those who do and teach the least commandments or laws will be called the greatest in this kingdom (which is on earth).

Entering into the kingdom of heaven is leaving the world completely. ‘For I have chosen you out of the world.’ The law could be the whole Bible except for the prophets, or even including the prophets, perhaps, such as Ezekiel and Isaiah, Jeremiah.

If not one law or commandment will pass from the law, then neither will

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

This may sound like a harsh penalty, but such was the law. It is far easier to ‘love thy neighbor as thyself’ which is the law summed up, even Gentiles, ‘sheep of another fold,’ will be included in this. The whole point of the Bible, in a nutshell. If you love your neighbor then you also love God, who is love.

The Jews could never do right, it seemed, so God sent His Son as a propitiation for their (our - ‘a Jew is not one who is a Jew outwardly, bu inwardly’) sins, so that we could start over, ‘born again’ or ‘renewed’ - ‘born from above’ - we could start over and confess our sins from there, having our misdeeds forgiven, and having a far better chance of getting into the New Jerusalem or into the Milenneum - being justified or sanctified makes one ‘bold before the throne of God.’

As far as sexual sin goes, I think the two most pernicious are perverse/‘homosexual’ or ‘strange woman’ and sex with a prostitute. Either one can have drastic consequences, the first can lower the bar so much that a person’s whole life can be considerably corrupted and perverted, a demon of addiction can enter in, and the second can lead to a death in many ways, emotional, spiritual, psychological and even physical - or being ‘cast down’ as a wounded. I feel what brought Sampson down was sex with a prostitute, which took place in Judges 16:1. Everything negative was after that, also as per Proverbs 7, saying such could cause death, maybe not the ultimate death right then and there, but a hastening of different kinds of death - the wages of sin being death, different kinds, not necessarily all at once. The death of a culture could be very much hastened if these two sins are accepted - in fact that culture is already ‘beyond the beyond. . . .’ Left to itself, with no vision, it is brought to shame.

I feel the Catholics are right about the confession of sins, and if one confesses sins to a priest, this is a discipline, and the task gets done: many Protestants don’t have the discipline to confess their sins to Jesus in private during prayer, and many or most, if not almost all, think they are forgiven in advance for any sin.
 
Exactly, Jesus did not come to destroy the laws of Leviticus but to fulfill them. He fulfilled all the laws of profits upon his death. He fulfilled all of them for us.

He gave this good news to the people in Hades or Sheol who were still subject to such things that they were now fulfilled.

A fulfilled thing is a completed thing. I can now eat pork; wear clothes that have cotton and whole intermixed, and have intercourse with my wife during menstruation… all of these things were referred to as abominations in the Old Testament.
 
Jesus was a man of meaningful actions, signs and wonders. He spoke out loudly and clearly when He, at the intercession of His Mother, opened His public ministry with His first miracle at the wedding feast in Cana. His actions blessed and clothed the union of a man and woman with a profound dignity and sacramental grace. His actions bless sexuality within the sacred union and harken back to Eden and God’s words to Adam and Eve, “Be fruitful and multiply” and in the second creation story the writer reveals " and the two of them become one flesh". These words were spoken BEFORE the Fall.
 
Yet in all that we say and do we must keep in mind that the harlots may enter the gates of Heaven before us. I always wonder who when commenting on this topic has committed adultery, premarital sex, and spilling of their seed. Who has lied, stolen, cheated, or even killed. Who has casts stones and who has ignored the log in their eye.
 
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Shibboleth:
Yet in all that we say and do we must keep in mind that the harlots may enter the gates of Heaven before us.

🙂
That is true, before the Pharisee, or Saducee, etc. I was not commenting on the harlot herself, but such sex can destroy a man, as can sex with the perverse type of situation. This is from Proverbs and I feel is true. This reflects on the fact that when you buy sex from a ‘harlot,’ you reduce your value before God to that of a piece of bread, or the amount of money you pay the harlot. It is sort of a curse, and one is very blessed if he is forgiven for this. I feel this and base it on Scripture. That we in the US are called the Whore of Babylon likewise I do not think reflects on women, per se. One meaning is that you get no respect unless you have money or the promise of such. You have to buy love, in other words.
I always wonder who when commenting on this topic has committed adultery, premarital sex, and spilling of their seed. Who has lied, stolen, cheated, or even killed. Who has casts stones and who has ignored the log in their eye.
This is not to say that one has not sinned. You miss the point. Your sympathy perhaps is still worldly, or such or you are defending those whom I am not commenting about. I was just quoting what is in Proverbs. Proverbs are often overlooked, which I feel has hurt Protestants and Catholics alike, and they are 100% accurate if the accurate translation is read/perused. 😉
 
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Shibboleth:
Exactly, Jesus did not come to destroy the laws of Leviticus but to fulfill them. He fulfilled all the laws of profits upon his death. He fulfilled all of them for us. . . .He gave this good news to the people in Hades or Sheol who were still subject to such things that they were now fulfilled. . . .A fulfilled thing is a completed thing. I can now eat pork; wear clothes that have cotton and whole intermixed, and have intercourse with my wife during menstruation… all of these things were referred to as abominations in the Old Testament.
Yes, but many abominations are still nonetheless sins, which break the 10 Commandments. I feel that Thou shalt not commit adultery regards sex with any person, which is not sanctified by marriage or concubinage. I feel it is not wrong to have a concubine, or more than one wife, though I am sure many may take exception to that. Men need sex and women don’t, I feel. I feel men in the NT also had routinely more than one wife. That keeps the woman from turning the man into a type who is sort of reduced to a couch potato watching the Super Bowl - she competes and then tries to have a better influence on the man and does not become his mother. The sad fact is that in ‘Babylon’ we are now upside down: we used to be a patriarchy but are now a matriarchy. Uncle Sam became the Whore of Babylon as per Revelation 17. But a good poet if he is corrupted by perverse type of stuff before long becomes completely unfruitful and writes nothing, unless he somehow turns around and understands how he has been wrong, and tries to learn his understanding or wisdom again.
 
Richard Lamb:
Second a person of Homosexual tendency that does Marry is doing a good thing
Dear Richard Lamb,

Who is benefiting from this union? If a gay man takes a woman as his bride how is that good? You’ve obviously never meet a person that was married to someone who was gay. The betrayal they felt, the rejection. For a wife to know her husband left her for another woman is one thing but when he leaves her for another man…how is she to feel. To know he never truly loved her the way a husband should. To know he never desired her. What kind of role model will he be for his children? I’ve gone to those support groups you alluded to. I’ve seen what help they can bring but I’ve seen way more damage. I watch those men hate themselves and whine about there helplessness. I’ve watched the men go through rehabilitation and watch there marriage crumbles. The wife never truly ever having a real intimate relationship. I heard these men tell me that it’s OK to marry someone you are not sexually attracted to because marriage after all is more than that…which is true to an extent. A marriage is the completion of Christ image. It is the unity of the two that mirrors the love of God. This gay man never gives himself to his bride the way a groom should and your encouragement toward this union really makes me question whether you fully understand what a marriage is suppose to be. Shame on you for sharing such a foolish thought. Christ did not come to this world so that sin will not be with us. He did not come to heal us. He healed those who were helpless those who were lost. Gay men are not necessarily lost. We all are sinners. We all depend on Christ and his sacrifice. I as a gay man use this cross to bring me closer to God. This cross is a blessing to me…it has given me greater intimacy with the Lord then many of you. Does it not mean I struggle from time to time? I do, but it is the compassionate statements such as Shibboleth that keeps me going. Sin is sin. There may be different degrees of sin but all sins of the flesh are equal. So unless you keep your hands off your little trooper and have never looked or acted upon your feelings with a woman in the wrong way you should not be so judgmental. Stop making such ignorant comments and take your Adam and Steve and go away and may I suggest something before I go (and this applies to me too)…go to confession. You have much hate in your heart. I depend on Christ to help me love you…and some of the people out in this world make it hard for me to be love. It those actions that truly keep me from witnessing to the truth which is Jesus Christ.

Dear Flying…read through Shibboleth’s comments. You are too hard on him. I find him to be most thought provoking!
 
What I say I say in love and is not meant for any particular but for all.

Jesus came to save us all. But not all are saved only those who accept him and his teachings. In the NT, Jesus saved those that were repented. Look at all those who were healed by him. Every single one, were repented and accepted Jesus. On the other hand, Jesus did not heal all. Look at the pharisees, with their hardened hearts, as well as the rich man who approached Jesus. All those who did not recieve the saving grace of Jesus had HARDENED hearts.

We all should beware of the becoming like a pharisee or the rich man.

Let us not harden our hearts.
 
The pharisees were preaching, but believing because of their status the laws were only for others.

Fraternal correction is not the same thing.
 
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CPB:
Dear Richard Lamb,
Dear Flying…read through Shibboleth’s comments. You are too hard on him. I find him to be most thought provoking!
I was not trying to be ‘hard’ on Shibboleth. I was saying that I feel Proverbs are very valid and in Proverbs the 2 worst kinds of ‘sex’ a man can have as per: the results are sex with a prostitute and perverse type. . . These have the worst consequences described. Many overlook Proverbs, and I think that is a big cause why ‘they’ get things in the Bible wrong. I feel many translations are not correct in that they ‘water’ down the Bible, and it becomes 1/2 Word of God and 1/2 Water, or that is H2O, and not actual the Water of the Word. I wasn’t in the mode of throwing the first stone at the adultress, but she was not a prostitute, either, nor was I necessarily ‘condemning’ prostitutes. Just saying that buying sex for money can be disastrous for the personality, as can the perverse kind, if it is ever accepted.
 
Flying,

I was not directing my comments at you about the harlot statement. I was making a general statement about when people choose to use the words of the Bible to condemn other individuals. I don’t think that the message of Jesus was one of condemnation but salvation. When Jesus said, “Forgive them they know not what they do…” he was not talking about good standing Christians, how many were there at that time, very few to be sure. He was speaking for all people and all sins.

I do not live in a glass house, so if anyone is upset by what I say or disagree, let me know. I welcome a good argument.
 
This assumes that it is impossible for someone to change their tendencies, if one is homosexual then one is doomed to stay homosexual…I have a higher regard for people than this and beleive that those that want to change can…Should an alcoholic not marry becasue he will ruin his family or should he change.

I am not saying it is easy few things worthwile are I am saying that it can be done…If a homosexual person does not beleive he can be happy married then he can choose the celibate life…It has been done before…
 
First…I have enough reasons to go to confetion than to have others tell me what I need to go for…If you say I have hate in my hear then you do not know me…

To hate the sin of homosexuality is not to hate the sinne, no more that to hate the sin of murder means I hate the murderer…

Having said this, I proposed that homosexula can marry and that it is holesome for them to do so…I did not however say this is th eonly alternative…obviously each case is different and must be handled accordingly,what is clear is that the Homosexual act is sinful and I will not shy away from stating the truth…
 
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Shibboleth:
Flying,

I was not directing my comments at you about the harlot statement. I was making a general statement about when people choose to use the words of the Bible to condemn other individuals. I don’t think that the message of Jesus was one of condemnation but salvation. When Jesus said, “Forgive them they know not what they do…” he was not talking about good standing Christians, how many were there at that time, very few to be sure. He was speaking for all people and all sins.

I do not live in a glass house, so if anyone is upset by what I say or disagree, let me know. I welcome a good argument.
I condem acts not individuals
 
Richard could you change your tendency and switch from heterosexual to homosexual? For those that think that homosexuality is a choice, please write and tell me when you chose to be heterosexual – I cannot remember when I chose to be a heterosexual.

A person can be born with man and woman genitalia, an extra finger, no fingers, blind, an extra chromosome…. why couldn’t someone be born with gender different brain structures? Research on the hypothalamus is showing just that…

I agree that anyone that has not received the Sacrament of Matrimony should not have sexual relations with their significant other, but what percentage of us on this board were able to do that… I was not. I would like to see who was, I bet you that there are less people on this board that remained abstinent until marriage than those who engaged in premarital relations. Perhaps not?

Alcoholism is not the same as Homosexuality, an Alcoholic does not crave alcohol until they have had a drink and it usually takes a few instances before the disorder takes hold. A homosexual feels urges without prior homosexual experiences… did you need to have contact with a girl to feel strong sexual attractions? An Alcoholic does not feel misaligned when drinking water or milk, even though it is not their preferred drink…homosexuals do feel misaligned when with the other sex.
 
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Shibboleth:
Richard could you change your tendency and switch from heterosexual to homosexual? For those that think that homosexuality is a choice, please write and tell me when you chose to be heterosexual – I cannot remember when I chose to be a heterosexual.

A person can be born with man and woman genitalia, an extra finger, no fingers, blind, an extra chromosome…. why couldn’t someone be born with gender different brain structures? Research on the hypothalamus is showing just that…

I agree that anyone that has not received the Sacrament of Matrimony should not have sexual relations with their significant other, but what percentage of us on this board were able to do that… I was not. I would like to see who was, I bet you that there are less people on this board that remained abstinent until marriage than those who engaged in premarital relations. Perhaps not?

Alcoholism is not the same as Homosexuality, an Alcoholic does not crave alcohol until they have had a drink and it usually takes a few instances before the disorder takes hold. A homosexual feels urges without prior homosexual experiences… did you need to have contact with a girl to feel strong sexual attractions? An Alcoholic does not feel misaligned when drinking water or milk, even though it is not their preferred drink…homosexuals do feel misaligned when with the other sex.
I am not commenting on whether it is a choice or not, but as a heterosexual it is just a sinful for me to violate Gods rules regarding sex. I am not to have sex outside of marriage…

I am not withous sin in the area of sex but if we were to leave commentary on sin to people without sin then no one would comment would they…I am not judging individuals just the act…

I use alchoholism because it has a genetic component and many people have already discovered this diorder before they marry…
 
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