The Real reason why one cannot be saved by faith alone.

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evangelical and catholic theologies both accept as the starting tenet of soteriology that we are saved by grace. god gives us his life as an act of generosity on his part. catholics agree with evangelicals that justification is by faith but not that it is by FAITH ALONE- works continue the justification after faith has begun it. first scripture does clearly and emphatically teach that works are involve in the "by " of justification. the most obvious paassage is in (james 2:14-26). james said that is “justified by what he does”. this passage alone should put an end to the contention that we are justified by faith ALONE.:bowdown: is it any wonder that some reformers attemted to put james into an appendix to the bible:eek: rather than in its historically accepted place? it is interesting to me how many evangelicals handle this passage. THEY IGNORE IT!!! THANK YOU MR DAVID CURRIE FOR TELLING ME THAT.🙂 BLESS YOU ALL.
 
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francisca:
Catholic church teach that one is saved by faith and grace. There is no room for our works to be taken into account regarding our salvation.

Works are the fruits of salvation. As for salvation, it is purely God’s works.

But although this has been repeated many times, it seems that we tend to cling to tradition (with small t) which hasn’t been completely renewed. I guess it will take sometime.

Yet, I almost can see that Luther, one day, will be one of the greatest Saint and doctor of the Church. It may take hundreds of years from now, but it’s just inevitable.

By then, our misunderstanding about each other will be wiped away, and we will come to a deeper understanding about our faith and tradition. Surely our works to divide the church are in vain, for God’s will is that the Church is one just as He is one. Anything against His will won’t work. Only the Truth will prevail for all eternity, so whoever seek for it will ultimately find it.

God bless.
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:eek: Are you serious?! Martin Luther? Saint? Doctor of the Church?!! Wow… I’ve heard everything…

Pope Leo X in *Exsurge Domine * wrote:

*With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected….We restrain all in the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication…

Moreover, because the preceding errors and many others are contained in the books or writings of Martin Luther, we likewise condemn, reprobate, and reject completely the books and all the writings and sermons of the said Martin, whether in Latin or any other language, containing the said errors or any one of them; and we wish them to be regarded as utterly condemned, reprobated, and rejected. We forbid each and every one of the faithful of either sex, in virtue of holy obedience and under the above penalties to be incurred automatically, to read, assert, preach, praise, print, publish, or **defend ** them. They will incur these penalties if they presume to uphold them in any way, personally or through another or others, directly or indirectly, tacitly or explicitly, publicly or occultly, either in their own homes or in other public or private places. *

be careful…
 
Don’t the words of Jesus in Matthew 25 make it clear that we will be judged by our works. Faith is implied in good works how else can one perform the deeds specified by Jesus.

31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Also read the letter of James for the proper perspective on faith and works.
 
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francisca:
Charity is love that gives. When we love someone, our love is often selfish. But God’s love makes our love perfect. Because when we believe, we love fearlessly.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Colossians 1:8
and he also informed us of your love in the Spirit.

Romans 5:5
and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Romans 15:30
Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me,

It seems the “big one” is God’s LOVE (not our own little timid selfish human love)… we love becasue God has loved us first. We can truly love by believing God, so that He put His love in our heart through His Spirit for those who believe…

May God bless us all.
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None of those verses say we don’t have to love. We have to love in order to be saved, you can not deny that.
John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

John 13
35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

John 14
15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 14
23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him.
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Jesus is very clear when he tells people to love God or to love there neighbor.
Luke 6
27 But I say to you that hear: Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you.

37 Luke 6
32 And if you love them that love you, what thanks are to you? for sinners also love those that love them.

Luke 10
27 He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself.
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Hi Yaqubos,

What I’m going to say isn’t meant as an insult but it may come across that way. I’m just emphasizing and thinking out loud. I take 1 Pet 3:16 to heart. Bear with me.

I’m only going to quote a couple of verses for starters because so many of the main verses have been used already. I’m not convinced you agree with our definition.

James 2:24 says, “Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?”

Let’s break this down:

Do you see that

BY WORKS
BY WORKS
BY WORKS

a man is

JUSTIFIED
JUSTIFIED
JUSTIFIED

and

NOT BY FAITH ONLY
NOT BY FAITH ONLY
NOT BY FAITH ONLY

Do you see that our definition is the correct one? Justification is the process by which we are saved. The person who tried to reconcile our 2 definitions is to be commended but OUR definition is the biblical one. It doesn’t say Works is only a fruit or anything like that. They are but not an option to justification. If you want to use fruit think of the story Jesus told about the tree that doesn’t produce fruit. It is chopped down and cast into the fire.

Eph 2:8-10 says, " For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.
Not of WORKS, that no man may glory.For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good WORKS, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them." Are these “Works” the same works? If they are then Paul must be schizo. We are saved by “Grace alone” but not by “Faith alone”. I think many protestants see the word “Alone” after “Faith” but it isn’t there. Right from the lips of Jesus it says in Matt 19:17, " Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS." We can discuss this further if you want.
Heb 11:29 says, " says, “By faith ‘they’ passed through the Red Sea, as by dry land:which the Egyptians attempting, were swallowed up.” The people who passed through the Red Sea were the Jews (“They”) and , therefore, it is estimated that there were over 1million people who crossed. Num 1:46 says, “Were six hundred and three thousand five hundred and fifty men.” This was just the number of “Men” that crossed so it would not be wrong to say over a million crossed the Red Sea. Paul spoke about these jews and said in 1 Cor 10:1-5, “For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud: and all passed through the sea. And all in Moses were baptized, in the cloud and in the sea: And did all eat the same spiritual food: And all drank the same spiritual drink: (And they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.) But with ‘most of them God was not well pleased’: for they were overthrown in the desert.” The Jews began to rebel in the desert to the point that only 2 adults were Num 14:30 worthy to enter the promised land – Joshua and Caleb (Num 14:30). Protestants like to use this chapter to say it’s by “Faith alone” because each verse says “By Faith”, “By Faith”, “By Faith” that we are saved yet right there in Chapter 11 God was not pleased with probably over a million who didn’t make it to the Promised Land. the Promised Land signifies heaven.

I can give you more if you want it.

May God bless,

James224
 
and i quoted again: “when one starts with the gospel of jesus, i believe it is inevitable that a catholic view of salvation will be developed. we are saved by grace,justified by faith and works. separate the faith from works, and it dies. we can take no credit for our salvation, because both the faith and the works are a result of god’s grace being operative in our lives. god has ordained that this is the method by which we merit salvation. he might have ordained a different way instead, but scripture teaches us he did it this way.” thank you again mr david currie:bowdown: god make me an instrument of your peace bless you all
 
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jimmy:
None of those verses say we don’t have to love. We have to love in order to be saved, you can not deny that.

Jesus is very clear when he tells people to love God or to love there neighbor.
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I don’t deny that we need to love.

I only want to show HOW we can truly love. It has to come from God’s love (1John)

Our love should be different than non-believers. Because even non-believers love too.

That’s all I can say rightnow.
 
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francisca:
I…
Our love should be different than non-believers. Because even non-believers love too.
…
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And this is where the difference between ACTUAL and SANCTIFYING grace comes in… Are you saying that the love exhibited by non-believers are of no value? Jesus taught us about the good Samaritan, remember? Seriously, sisca, you are *really * starting to sound like a Lutheran…
 
mayra hart:
and i quoted again: “when one starts with the gospel of jesus, i believe it is inevitable that a catholic view of salvation will be developed. we are saved by grace,justified by faith and works. separate the faith from works, and it dies. we can take no credit for our salvation, because both the faith and the works are a result of god’s grace being operative in our lives. god has ordained that this is the method by which we merit salvation. he might have ordained a different way instead, but scripture teaches us he did it this way.” thank you again mr david currie:bowdown: god make me an instrument of your peace bless you all
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Amen. Just as in Mt.5;46 Christ is saying it’s not enough to love only those who love you, so James 2:19 is saying, you believing is not enough, even demons believe. That faith and works go hand in hand is evidenced throughout the OT and the NT. Paul puts it nicely in Gal 5:6 “…faith, which expresses itself through love.”
 
Hi All,

I’ve seen some very good answers and questions on this thread. I want to speak on grace having to do with justification. When we say you are justified by Faith and Works (James 2:24), these “Works” are done THROUGH GOD’S GRACE. Some of the protestants on here have brought this up and they are right. Where they are wrong is to think that we don’t believe that. Let me quote the Council of Trent on this. Make a note of this: Of the 33 canons issued by the Council of Trent on justification, this is the very FIRST Canon: " CANON I.-“If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.” So you see, these works are done IN GOD’S GRACE. I want to show you something in Gal 5:6 which says, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision: but FAITH that WORKETH by Charity.” Notice: Here you see the word “Worketh” or simply “Works”. Faith must have Works for Justification. There are too many examples of souls who have walked the aisle in Faith and didn’t act on it or did for awhile and fell away (Matt 7:21-23, Matt 10:22,28,33, Luke 8:13, Rom 11:20-22, 1 Cor 10:11-12 - there are many more).
.

May God bless,

James224
 
“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the
Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8), but I’m also being
saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be
saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).” “I am redeemed,” answers the Catholic,
“and like the Apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling
(Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2,
2 Tim. 2:11-13)–but not with a false “absolute” assurance about my own
ability to persevere (2 Cor. 13:5). And I do all this as the Catholic Church has
taught, unchanged, from the time of Christ.”

cin.org/archives/cinapol/199804/0183.html (very bottom)
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace!

I should face the obvious fact that I am here discussing this matter with someone who teaches heretical things that the Church never believed.

Faith is never a work of humans, but a work of God in us.

The Bible says clearly that faith is a gift:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God” ( Ephesians 2:8 )

“For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake” ( Philippians 1:29 )

And if you don’t believe God, maybe you may believe people who experienced the love of God. What about reading St Augustine on this subject?..

In Love,
Yaqubos†
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Yaqubos,

I am not speaking heresy. I have never denied that faith is a gift or that we are not saved by grace. Your problem is that you are responding from your faith tradition’s doctrinal-position and not from scripture. The scripture verses you quoted do nothing but reinforce Catholic teaching and I agree with them completely. The verses you quoted and the verses I quoted both tell us something about God and his gracious gifts of faith, hope, and love. They are not exclusive of one another…instead they compliment and fill out our understandings.

You can tell me I am wrong but your argument is not with me. Instead, your our argument is with scripture. Your doctrinal position does not allow you to accept the scripture verses I quoted, and scripturally you have not directly refuted anything that I have said. The verses clearly indicate, that at least in some sense, the gifts of faith and love are still works. Even common sense tells us that believing and loving are things that we do.

What you fail to understand is that God’s gifts of grace go out in power and they do not return to Him empty (see Isaiah 55:11). This is stated clearly in Eph 2:10 where we are told “For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.” When we receive God’s grace we cannot remain inert and still be saved.

Now, if you can show me that the scripture verses I have quoted mean something other than what they clearly mean (i.e. that faith and love are works), then please expound on this in your next post. This would be preferable to merely calling me a heretic.
 
I am repeating much of what I wrote in the previous post which you have taken exception with. I’ve done so in order that you don’t have to search for the quotes. Please try to refute the my understanding of the following quotes from scripture.

Love and faith are necessary works.

The belief that we are saved by faith alone and that it is not necessary to love God in order to be saved is contrary to both scripture and common sense.

We are told in 1Cor 8:3 that “…anyone that loves God is known by him.” If you are not known by God then you are not saved. This is given even greater emphasis in 1 Cor 16:22 where Paul tells us, “Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord.” In James 1:12 we are told that “…the crown of life is promised to those who love him [the Lord].” This same statement is repeated in James 2:5.

And the apostle, John, defines for us what love of God is when he says in 1Jn 5:3 “For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments.” And Jesus, Himself, says in John 15:10 that “If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.” Obviously, if we do not abide in God’s love we are not saved.

In John’s vision in the book of Revelation, Jesus warns members of the church at Ephesus that they might be destroyed if they do not repent and return to the love they once had. This is very clear in Rev 2:4-5 where Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Then again just before addressing the transgressions of the church at Thyatira, Jesus says in Rev 2:19 that, "I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.” These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works.

This linkage is also made by Paul in Galatians 5:6 where we read, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love."

Paul also makes this point in 1 Thessalonians 1-4

"PAUL, SILVANUS, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brethren beloved by God, that he has chosen you; "
 
and i quoted again: “evangelicals sometimes think of salvation as a kind of a quiz. get the right answer and you’re in! they ask people, when you die, and jesus asks you at the gate of heaven, why should i let you into heaven? what will you say?” what question!:eek: jesus nowhere implies that judgment will be a quiz in which the correct answer gets you in and a wrong one forces you out. perhaps someone has been watching too many game shows on television. “wheel of fortune” has nothing to do with entering to heaven. entrance to heaven is preceded by a judgment: a judgment of what we have done in our lives. thank again mr david currie.bless you all.
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace!

For “THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH” ( Romans 1:17 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†
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Hi Yaqubos,
Yes , they shall live minute by minute hour by hour day by day, walking in faith, following the lead of the Holy Spirit, which can’t be seen or heard ( usually). This is living by faith.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
 
Chris W:
I really believe that the disagreement between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians on the issue of Salvation by faith alone is due to misconceptions. For clarification, Catholics agree that salvation is a free gift from God, merited by the suffering and death of Jesus Christ. Jesus opened the doors of Heaven, allowing us to be saved. There is nothing we can do to “earn” salvation in this sense.

My experience has been that non-Catholics have a real discomfort about Catholicism because there is a misconception that Catholics think we can somehow “buy our way into Heaven” through our works. What I hear from Protestants is, “For us to think we have to do anything, takes away from the glory of what Jesus did for us.” This is a sincere concern, and if the Catholic Church taught what many Protestants think it teaches, then this concern would indeed be valid. However, with a proper understanding of Catholic teaching, this concern vanishes.

St Paul said “I rejoice now in the sufferings I bear for your sake; and what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ I fill up in my flesh for His body, which is the church.” St. Paul is saying that he makes up for what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ’s physical body for the sake of His Mystical Body, which is the church. He certainly does not mean to infer Jesus’ work was insufficient. Rather, he is describing how we still have our part to do.

We are commanded to do good works and our works are meritorious (there is a reward for them). Catholics teach the benefits of pursuing good works; to show our love, for the resulting grace, for the remission of sins, etc. This does not take away from the fact that our salvation was merited by the suffering and death of Jesus Christ, any more than St Paul was taking away from the glory of what Jesus did.
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HI Chris W,
yes I agree with you. We also must remember there is a time and a place. Now if our work is done through faith, That is by the leading of the Holy Spirit, then the work is done at the right time and the right place. To do the same work at someother time and place is not good works. an example is helping some one rotate the car tires. If you tighten the nuts on the wheel after the wheel has been rotated then this is a good work, but if you tighten the nuts before the old wheel has been taken off the car and rotated then you are a hindrance because the work was not done at the right time. You did the same job , tighten the nuts, but you did them at the wrong time. Now the leading of the Holy Spirit gives us the right time. So works alone can not save because they may be a hindrance, but works in faith are at the right time and the right place
The other question is Can a Christian do works that are not at the right time and place?
Christ be with you.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG
 
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hermit:
Don’t the words of Jesus in Matthew 25 make it clear that we will be judged by our works. Faith is implied in good works how else can one perform the deeds specified by Jesus.

31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Also read the letter of James for the proper perspective on faith and works.
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Hi Hermit,
The first group were not aware of the leading of the Holy Spirit, because they were not aware of their good works, but because of the indwelling Holy Spirit and their Christian nature good works were done, passively. The second were stiff necked, because the Holy Spirit has been poured out on all of mankind, and rejected the leading of the Holy Spirit. They may or may not have been Christians. If you actively participate and seek the leading of the Holy Spirit and submit consciously then joy love peace etc fill your heart.
Christ be with you,
walk in love,http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
 
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Pax:
I am repeating much of what I wrote in the previous post which you have taken exception with. I’ve done so in order that you don’t have to search for the quotes. Please try to refute the my understanding of the following quotes from scripture.

Love and faith are necessary works.

The belief that we are saved by faith alone and that it is not necessary to love God in order to be saved is contrary to both scripture and common sense.

We are told in 1Cor 8:3 that “…anyone that loves God is known by him.” If you are not known by God then you are not saved. This is given even greater emphasis in 1 Cor 16:22 where Paul tells us, “Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord.” In James 1:12 we are told that “…the crown of life is promised to those who love him [the Lord].” This same statement is repeated in James 2:5.

And the apostle, John, defines for us what love of God is when he says in 1Jn 5:3 “For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments.” And Jesus, Himself, says in John 15:10 that “If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.” Obviously, if we do not abide in God’s love we are not saved.

In John’s vision in the book of Revelation, Jesus warns members of the church at Ephesus that they might be destroyed if they do not repent and return to the love they once had. This is very clear in Rev 2:4-5 where Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Then again just before addressing the transgressions of the church at Thyatira, Jesus says in Rev 2:19 that, "I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.” These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works.

This linkage is also made by Paul in Galatians 5:6 where we read, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love."

Paul also makes this point in 1 Thessalonians 1-4

"PAUL, SILVANUS, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brethren beloved by God, that he has chosen you; "
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H Pax,
wow everything is getting confusing because of the thickness or a hair.
I hope to pour oil on the water not petrol. I hope I succeed. Faith is a gift. Faith is a measurable gift. some more and some less. We can not hop onto a set of faith scales and measure someone else’s faith. Now faith produces good works. If we dont have faith, any works we do are probably at the wrong time. So faith has to come first before works have any value. Then works done by the leading of the Holy Spirit are good works done at the right time and the right place. Only God has wisdom. Now we can as believers in Christ have works ( doing something the Holy Spirit has asked us to do as we are servants of God doing His loving work ) done passively. Like the parable mentioned in this thread, visiting sick and those in jail etc. Or if we become sensitive to the Holy Spirit we can become increasingly aware of when He is leading us and joy and love and peace overflow. Imagine being able to say in 100% truth, Man God just asked me to do something and I did it Wow dont you feel good. Yes you do.
Come Lord Jesus come
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG
 
EdwinG,

Do not worry. I agree with everything in your response to me except for the word “passive.” Our response to the Holy Spirit is generally not passive. When we love God we actively seek His will and we actively desire to respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

My post merely poses the question about the scriptures that clearly state that faith and love are works. I believe that these verses are, like all of scripture, the inspired word of God and that they are useful for instruction, reproof, and training in righteousness. If there is a non-Catholic on these boards that can prove that these verses mean something other than what they obviously state, then I am certainly willing to accept the challenge.

So far no one has done that, and I believe that it cannot be done.

Only Catholic theology fully embraces the entirety of scripture. The Church is, as Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 3:15, “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” No where in scripture are we told that we are saved by faith “alone.” The only place in scripture where the words faith and alone are used together is in James 2:24 where he clearly states, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Moreover, I have given additional verses that demonstrate that faith is not an inert gift but is something active, and that both faith and love are themselves “works.” While both faith and love are unearned supernatural gifts of God, they are still things, that once given to us, "we do."
 
the parables of the wise and foolish builders (mt21:28-32), the goodsamaritan(lk10:25-37), the talents (mt25:14-30), the sheep and the goats (mt 25:31-46), and others all teach a unity of faith and works for salvation. padre nuestro que estas en el cielo… amen:gopray:
 
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