Thousands protest immigration proposal

[MikeWM]

rlg94086:

I think that may change in the future, but now is not the time. Why, you ask (I know you will )? Because of the disparity of income between countries.

I know you partly answered this in the next paragraphs, but it seems to me that the same argument applies to trade as to people. While we can import goods from the sweat-shops, it doesn’t do our country any good (either for our own jobs and hence economy, or our morals), and it certainly doesn’t help them if costs have to be kept to a minimum and lax labour laws can be exploited.

One other point that was touched on earlier : EU residents have the right to go and live and work anywhere in the EU (with some exceptions). When the eastern European countries joined in May 2004, there was lots of trashy media xenophobia in the UK about ‘floods’ of people from these poorer countries taking us over. As it is, we’ve had some people come here, though hardly a flood, and many of them are doing very useful jobs that we had a shortage of, such as plumbers and dentists. It’s worked out rather well so far.

And one other point that was touched on : it costs rather a lot of money for each step in the citizenship process, never mind the time and complicated form-filling it involves. Take a look at the website uscis.gov paying attention at the filing fees for each step, for example. $395 in total for a I-485 (green card application). If you’re bored, have a look at the I-485 form too, some of the questions are hilarious (‘have you ever engaged in genocide?’, for example

Mike

 

[TarAshly]

yes. yes I do. Thanks for asking.

wabrams:

Do you even know what an isolationist is?

 

[Jeffrey]

Nope… the Mexicans goverments prob… not mine or the USA’s.

Kendy:

No, your neighbor. Your problem. You are your brother keeper

Kendy

 

[Geldain]

TarAshly:

No, I am playing the “race card” because the law is prejudiced.

How so? Specifically, please. Show us where in the law this prejudice actually is.

 

[Geldain]

Kendy:

No, your neighbor. Your problem. You are your brother keeper

Kendy

This is a severe mischaracterization,

 

[Jeffrey]

Been saying that for years… until the Mexican Government does something about the state of thier country… it’ll be a long hard fight… which we need win.

wabrams:

Maybe instead of coming here they should do something about the corrupt government down there.

 

[Geldain]

TarAshly:

So youre an isolationist then? How very charitable of you.

One is not a isolationist when expecting the Mexican government to do more to create the environment where a vibrant economy is possible for it’s citizens to participate in. Nor is it uncharitible.

 

[TarAshly]

seems to me to be exactly what you are saying. Have you ever been to Mexico? How many of you who support this law have been to Mexico? worked with the impovrished down there? if you havent then you have no IDEA what it is like. I think it ought to be a qualification to vote on the issue, that you have to have experianced what is really going on down there. I was a ranch hand my freshmen year of college, my bossman often got people walking through our pastures offering to work for three dollars an hour, no matter how much work and all they wanted to do was be allowed to camp on his ranch. I know this because I did all of the translating for him. I would talk to these guys and tell them that that wasnt enough money. They would tell me that it was three times what they could earn in Mexico for the same work.

Jeffrey:

You’re using the race card… I’m not the racist… nice try on te spin.

And no… .thats NOT what i’m saying… no problem sharing… with LEGAL residents.

 

[Geldain]

Kendy:

There are plenty of people doing that. The Mexican economy has actually improved greatly in the past ten years.

Kendy

You’ve just shot down the one reason pro-illegal immigrationists have been trying to use to justify the deliberate violation of US immigration laws.

 

[Kendy]

wabrams:

Proof please.

wabrams:

I don’t know what proof could possibly need. The U.S. has a policy of awarding access to those who have the means or the education. You can research this yourself. If you get a job with microsoft, you will be granted access. If your only reason for immigrating is that you are poor forget it. I know this because I am from the poorest country in the Western hemisphere. Like I said, we had no trouble getting a visa because my father was a doctor, but we left behind tons of people who were not so fortunate. Feel free to reaserch this yourself if you don’t believe me. I have no reason to lie.

wabrams:

You can’t pay taxes when you don’t have a SSN or at least a valid SSN, and you can’t pay taxes when your employer just hands you a 1099, if you get that much.

First of all you can sometimes get a real social security number that says not valid for work and then have a fake one made or just use the number without the card. Or you can use another number.

wabrams:

On our high horse today, aren’t we? How about I would tell God the truth: I supported it so the system could be fixed and not bankrupt the country or medical facilities so that we could multiply many times over the number of immigrants we take and do it faster and cheaper.

Yes, it’s actually quite nice up here . Yeah, listen what you do is between you and God. You tell him whatever you want. I have told you why I would rather hold my position. Check out my post earlier with all the bible references on how we should treat immigrants.

 

[TarAshly]

No and I absolutely agree. But things down there are run more like a aristocracy rather than a democracy. The country is prodominately poor, and the only influences on government are those who can line the pockets. the majority of these people dont even have pockets let along money to line them with. Unless there is another great revolution, with the backing of a highly developed economic power head like the US, there will be no change.

Geldain:

One is not a isolationist when expecting the Mexican government to do more to create the environment where a vibrant economy is possible for it’s citizens to participate in. Nor is it uncharitible.

 

[Geldain]

TarAshly:

seems to me to be exactly what you are saying. Have you ever been to Mexico? How many of you who support this law have been to Mexico? worked with the impovrished down there? if you havent then you have no IDEA what it is like. I think it ought to be a qualification to vote on the issue, that you have to have experianced what is really going on down there.

To follow this argument to it’s logical conclusion, no one could ever vote for anything they did not have personal experience with. It’s a logical fallacy which ruins the totality of your argument. Valid arguments do not require logical fallacies in order to prove their validity.

 

[rlg94086]

So do you agree with some of the other posters, that all borders should be open to immigration to anyone from anywhere? (Remember the size of you island before you answer. )

If you don’t agree with that, then you should support us in finding the best solution for our country. If we have a plumber shortage, we can fill it through legal means - no need for an undocumented worker.

MikeWM:

I know you partly answered this in the next paragraphs, but it seems to me that the same argument applies to trade as to people. While we can import goods from the sweat-shops, it doesn’t do our country any good (either for our own jobs and hence economy, or our morals), and it certainly doesn’t help them if costs have to be kept to a minimum and lax labour laws can be exploited.

One other point that was touched on earlier : EU residents have the right to go and live and work anywhere in the EU (with some exceptions). When the eastern European countries joined in May 2004, there was lots of trashy media xenophobia in the UK about ‘floods’ of people from these poorer countries taking us over. As it is, we’ve had some people come here, though hardly a flood, and many of them are doing very useful jobs that we had a shortage of, such as plumbers and dentists. It’s worked out rather well so far.

And one other point that was touched on : it costs rather a lot of money for each step in the citizenship process, never mind the time and complicated form-filling it involves. Take a look at the website uscis.gov paying attention at the filing fees for each step, for example. $395 in total for a I-485 (green card application). If you’re bored, have a look at the I-485 form too, some of the questions are hilarious (‘have you ever engaged in genocide?’, for example

Mike

 

[rlg94086]

Um…words have multiple definitions…obviously the government uses the term alien in the sense of #1b, not #2.

TarAshly:

Ok you can honestly read that definition and still think it is ok to call another human being an alien? :ehh: refering to #2.

 

[Geldain]

TarAshly:

No and I absolutely agree. But things down there are run more like a aristocracy rather than a democracy.

Then the energy of the pro-illegal immigrants who assert they are only interested in the improved quality of life for the illegal immigrants would better serve them and their families by expending the effort in MEXICO. Breaking the law in the US does nothing to improve anything in Mexico.

 

[Kendy]

wabrams:

Thats a crock. Basically, it seems your only argument is to throw out the race card.

Now. Wabrams that was neither fair nor very nice :tsktsk:

I have provided a substantial amount of economic and moral arguments throughout this tread. Feel free to go back if you missed some of them. I make no bones about the fact that some part of this is motivated by race. You may disagree with that and other arguments, but it is simply not true that ALL I have done is throw out the race card. I have thrown out the justice card, the Christain charity card, and the economic benefits cards. I am sorry you have chosen to ignore all those other arguments.

Kendy

 

[Geldain]

TarAshly:

Ok you can honestly read that definition and still think it is ok to call another human being an alien? :ehh: refering to #2.

I certainly can because I was taught how to apply context to defnitions

 

[TarAshly]

Actually, its not. I dont think it would be a bad idea if people had to have a working knowledge of something before they voted on it rather than going into the voter box and playing bingo.

Geldain:

To follow this argument to it’s logical conclusion, no one could ever vote for anything they did not have personal experience with. It’s a logical fallacy which ruins the totality of your argument. Valid arguments do not require logical fallacies in order to prove their validity.

 

[Geldain]

Kendy:

I have provided a substantial amount of economic and moral arguments throughout this tread.

With only anecdotal evidence to validate them. This doesn’t strengthen any of your arguments. In fact, from where I sit, it weakens them considerably.

 

[Geldain]

TarAshly:

Actually, its not. I dont think it would be a bad idea if people had to have a working knowledge of something before they voted on it rather than going into the voter box and playing bingo.

This is another logical fallacy, and perhaps a violation of the forum guidelines. It presumes a person with a working knowledge of the situtation could only agree with you. It’s also presumes you know a person disagreeing with you is doing so because they don’t have a “working knowledge” of the issue.