Thousands protest immigration proposal

[Jeffrey]

Been as far south as Mexico City… it was ok some areas in better shape than others… but its obvious that the Mexican Government has its work cut out for them.

TarAshly:

seems to me to be exactly what you are saying. Have you ever been to Mexico? How many of you who support this law have been to Mexico? worked with the impovrished down there? if you havent then you have no IDEA what it is like. I think it ought to be a qualification to vote on the issue, that you have to have experianced what is really going on down there. I was a ranch hand my freshmen year of college, my bossman often got people walking through our pastures offering to work for three dollars an hour, no matter how much work and all they wanted to do was be allowed to camp on his ranch. I know this because I did all of the translating for him. I would talk to these guys and tell them that that wasnt enough money. They would tell me that it was three times what they could earn in Mexico for the same work.

 

[Kendy]

Jeffrey:

Keep you racist comments to yourself.

Seriously, now calling someone a racist is a being racist?

It really annoys me how Christians refuse to deal with the harsh reality of this country’s racist past. I love living in this country. I don’t really want to be anywhere else, but before 1960 (and a little bit afterwards), it was shall we say less than pleasant not to be white in this country. There was a Chinese exclusion Act in the beginning of this country. And they were the only group of nonwhite trying to immigrate. And they were the only group specifically excluded. There had always been Mexicans in the Southwest since we took the Southwest from Mexico. And immigration laws were less strict before the 1960 when more nonwhites started coming.

That this country has a racist past is a fact. Please, deal with it.

Kendy

 

[rlg94086]

Btw…it is a myth that most Mexicans come to the US because they have no jobs back home…at least according to this NY times article (the link requires Acrobat Reader):
tindallfoster.com/Immigration/ExportedSite/ImmigrationResources/immigrationinthenews/NewStudyMexicanImmigrants.pdf

The survey found that the most recent to arrive were more likely to have worked in construction or commerce, rather than agriculture, in Mexico. Only 5 percent had been unemployed there; they were “drawn not from the fringes, but from the heart of Mexico’s labor force,” the report said.
After a difficult transition in their first six months in the United States - about 15 percent of the respondents said they did not work during that time - the rate of unemployment plummeted, to an average of 5 percent.

But in one of the most striking findings, 38 percent reported an unemployment spell lasting a month or more in the previous year, regardless of their location, legal status or length of time in the United States.

“These are workers with no safety net,” Mr. Kochhar said. “The long-run implication is a generation of workers without health or pension benefits, without any meaningful asset accumulation.”

I disagree with the articles conclusion that a guest worker program won’t work because the paperwork would be an annoyance to employers since they can hire illegals now. This is easily solved by:

1. Changing it to a felon to hire someone without proper documentation.
2. Chaning the documentation to a more meaningful form of ID.
3. Better enforcement.

 

[MikeWM]

rlg94086:

So do you agree with some of the other posters, that all borders should be open to immigration to anyone from anywhere?

I think that would probably be going too far. I believe in an inclusive and pretty relaxed immigration policy, but I don’t think removing all rules is the best way to go right now.

(Remember the size of you island before you answer. )

I was actually thinking about that earlier this evening when walking along a road effectively in the middle of nowhere only a few miles from here. Space isn’t the issue - we have loads of empty space. The problem with massively increasing your population in a short period of time is with resources and infrastructure - housing, water, electricity, hospitals, etc.

If you don’t agree with that, then you should support us in finding the best solution for our country.

I’m not sure I’ve weighed in on the specifics of what is going on here at all. My one comment is that while your economy depends on illegals, it’s a bit much to simultaneously treat them like dirt. You should either accept the fact you need them and give them a trivial low-cost route to become legal, or work out a way to run your economy without having the need for illegals.

If we have a plumber shortage, we can fill it through legal means - no need for an undocumented worker.

It’s not a skilled job problem though. I’ve lived in the US on a visa myself with very little difficulty, after all. It’s the unskilled unwanted jobs that are filled by the illegal people that are the issue. You’re never going to have a visa program for toilet cleaners or restaurant workers.

Mike

 

[Jeffrey]

Yes calling someone a racist can be considering racism… if you look at the meaning of which said ppl intended… white ppl bad just because they are white and don’t want ppl breaking laws to get here and sucking thier tax money that could go to better helath benefits for the LEGAL residents.

How about you deal with the fact that the illegal aliens are breaking the law and need to be stopped.

Kendy:

Seriously, now calling someone a racist is a being racist?

It really annoys me how Christians refuse to deal with the harsh reality of this country’s racist past. I love living in this country. I don’t really want to be anywhere else, but before 1960 (and a little bit afterwards), it was shall we say less than pleasant not to be white in this country. There was a Chinese exclusion Act in the beginning of this country. And they were the only group of nonwhite trying to immigrate. And they were the only group specifically excluded. There had always been Mexicans in the Southwest since we took the Southwest from Mexico. And immigration laws were less strict before the 1960 when more nonwhites started coming.

That this country has a racist past is a fact. Please, deal with it.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

wabrams:

Are you saying they turned Miami into a developing city simply because they moved here?

I am saying they came here and worked and built Miami. This is something I know quite a bit about. Not only am I from Miami, but I did some serious research on its history in college. I can tell you very detailed things, like the history the the garment industry in Miami. How hispanics took over many of the garment factory jobs, which upset the white and African-American population in Miami. But then how those factories were shipped abroad. I can tell you about how Miami turned into a hub for internet connections leading in South America. My point is Miami is my area of expertise. So, unless you think I am a liar, you can take my word for this. In fact, native South Floridians will tel you that Miami was just a sleepy Southern town before the Cubans arrived.

wabrams:

But the property taxes and state tax stamps on mortgages are outrageous.

Oh, they are much better than most cities. We don’t even have a state income tax. I have lived in New York and now, I live in Chicago and comapred to those big cities, Miami taxes are nothing.

wabrams:

Funny thing is, this new legislation wouldn’t deport them; that is unless they refused to become citizens. But we don’t want the facts to stand in the way, do we?

First, of all there are laws in the books to deport them now. It’s just not that strictly enforced.

Second, nobody would refuse citizenship if it was offered so that’s very silly. Most illegal immigrants are barred from establishing the residency they need to apply for citizenship.

Kendy

 

[wabrams]

TarAshly:

yes. yes I do. Thanks for asking.

Then you know you labeled Jeffrey by calling him something that you knew he wasn’t.

 

[Kendy]

rlg94086:

What does that leave? A felony for people engaged in smuggling, hiring, etc. illegal aliens. I hope you are not going to break that law.

I am glad to know that those portions of the bill are not going to be included. So, it looks like I won’t be breaking any laws. I won’t be smuggling anybody. As for hiring people, well…if I ever get lawn that needs mowing

Kendy

 

[wabrams]

TarAshly:

Ok you can honestly read that definition and still think it is ok to call another human being an alien? :ehh: refering to #2.

Do you honestly not know that a word can have multiple meanings and that the different meanings are independent of each other?

 

[wabrams]

Kendy:

Now. Wabrams that was neither fair nor very nice :tsktsk:

Don’t lecture me about not being fair when you haven’t even read the proposed legislation. If you had, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Kendy:

I have provided a substantial amount of economic and moral arguments throughout this tread. Feel free to go back if you missed some of them. I make no bones about the fact that some part of this is motivated by race. You may disagree with that and other arguments, but it is simply not true that ALL I have done is throw out the race card. I have thrown out the justice card, the Christain charity card, and the economic benefits cards. I am sorry you have chosen to ignore all those other arguments.

Kendy

From what I have seen, you have provided no evidence except for you opinion and false assumptions.

 

[Geldain]

Kendy:

That this country has a racist past is a fact.

Kendy

This is certainly true. However, this truth has no relevance regarding this discussion or the reality of current/proposed immigration policy or law.

Unless of course you can show us all by citing the law how this is not the case, of course

 

[rlg94086]

MikeWM:

I was actually thinking about that earlier this evening when walking along a road effectively in the middle of nowhere only a few miles from here. Space isn’t the issue - we have loads of empty space. The problem with massively increasing your population in a short period of time is with resources and infrastructure - housing, water, electricity, hospitals, etc.

Since I stayed in Oxfordshire quite a bit (the company I worked for was in a wonderful market town, Thame, with a nice, old in The Spread Eagle, or “The Spread”.) I am familiar with the open space. It actually surprised me. I’m not sure what I expected…wall-to-wall London?

MikeWM:

I’m not sure I’ve weighed in on the specifics of what is going on here at all. My one comment is that while your economy depends on illegals, it’s a bit much to simultaneously treat them like dirt. You should either accept the fact you need them and give them a trivial low-cost route to become legal, or work out a way to run your economy without having the need for illegals.

It’s not a skilled job problem though. I’ve lived in the US on a visa myself with very little difficulty, after all. It’s the unskilled unwanted jobs that are filled by the illegal people that are the issue. You’re never going to have a visa program for toilet cleaners or restaurant workers.

Mike

We agree 110% here. That’s why I support the guest worker program (note the broken record). I also heard it mentioned on my favorite radio show, that for the illegal aliens that have served in our military, own homes, pay taxes, etc. they should be given the ability to apply for residency after paying a fine. (Are you surprised to hear that illegals aliens fit those categories? There are more than you may think.) Legalizing the unskilled laborers would force some of the employer’s unethical practices out in the open.

 

[Kendy]

rlg94086:

BTW…I mentioned in an earlier post that immigration is bad for both countries. Here is an article regarding the effect to Mexico of immigration to the US:

mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/14191386.htm

It is almost universality accepted among economist that people are rational, utility maiximizers. It is possible that a particular person does not fit this model. However, it is almost certainly improbable that 11 million people are not rational, utility maximizers, that the Mexican govt. which wants us to have more flexible immigration policies is not utility maximizing, and that the people who employ these illegals are not utility maximizing. That is it is extremely improbable that both millions of people would immigrate against their own interest, that Americans would generally welcome them (by providing them jobs and services) against their own interest. Anyone who could disprove this would be contradicting economic principles established since Adam Smith and models who have been confirmed by great minds like John Nash. If this person is right, then we really should alert the Nobel prize committee.

Kendy

 

[rlg94086]

I would like to say, “hire that industrious teenager down the block”, but I’m not sure they exist anymore . You have to pry the video game controls from their hands and teach them what a lawnmower is first.

Kendy:

I am glad to know that those portions of the bill are not going to be included. So, it looks like I won’t be breaking any laws. I won’t be smuggling anybody. As for hiring people, well…if I ever get lawn that needs mowing

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Jeffrey:

Nope… the Mexicans goverments prob… not mine or the USA’s.

Excuse me, but from which bible did you get the notion that ought only to love those who share you nationality?

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

I am reposting this because I think it bears repeating

Kendy:

I don’t have a CCC handy, but I looked up the word alien in an online bible to answer your question. It seems that along with the poor, the widows, and the fatherless, God is particularly concerned about the alien. Perhaps, it is because the Lord knows how tempted we are to scapegoat the Mexican worker who picks our tomatoes below living wages. Oddly, something else that the Lord is concerned about— fair wages (but that’s another thread.)

Anyway, here are just a tiny of fractions of how the Lord instructed Israel to treat foreigners. Notice there are no instructions to deny them jobs and social services. In fact, there is one passge, which I didn’t pull which says, allot a special portion of your harvest for the poor, the widows, and the alien.

**"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt. Exodus 22:21

" 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you.
Leviticus 25:35

He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing. And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt. Deuteromony 10:18-19

“Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow.” Then all the people shall say, “Amen!” Deuteromony 27:19

The LORD watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked. Psalm 149:9

if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm. Jeremiah 7:6

In you they have treated father and mother with contempt; in you they have oppressed the alien and mistreated the fatherless and the widow. Ezekial 22:7

In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance," declares the Sovereign LORD. Ezekiel 47:23**

Now, let’s do another exercise. Would would Jesus do?

Let’s say Jesus was living in United States and a Haitian immigrant comes to Jesus and says to him. Jesus, I had to bring my family here on the raft in order to feed. I would have prefered to stay in Haiti, but after the U.S. insisted on liberalization policies (policies they don’t impose on their own farmers, but that’s for another thread), we lost our rice farm, and had to come to the U.S. We had no money and no education so they would never give us a visa. We waited ten years for legal entry, but we could not get it. After ten years, I decided to to take my family away from hunger and political violence. Would you good rabbi, give me a job in your carpentry shop so that I could feed my family. Do you really think Jesus would say, you don’t have the right papers and I reporting you to the authorities so they can torture (I don’t mean literally) you in guantanamo for a while and then send you back to Haiti. That doesn’t sound like the Jesus of the gospels. :nope:

Now, neither the cardinal nor I am necessarily saying that we need to have an open door policy. Although there are some very well-respected economist who believe that it would actually benefit Americans economically… But that’s another thread. However, tightening the screws on people who have come here to work is neither just nor humane. And from what I have read, it seems like the proposed law would like those involved in charitable organizations to report illegal immigrants seeking help. Well, that’s not something I think Jesus would do and it’s not something I would do.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Geldain:

This is a severe mischaracterization,

Please, explain how that’s a mischaracterization. Jeffrey said, it’s was the Mexican Govt.'s problem not his. I responded that he is brother keeper and thus it is his problem. I don’t understand your comment.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Geldain:

You’ve just shot down the one reason pro-illegal immigrationists have been trying to use to justify the deliberate violation of US immigration laws.

So, because the Mexican economy has been improving, we should expect people not to immigrate. I said the economy was improving, largely through increased free trade in the region. I never said, the country is prosperous. They are making reforms; They have a relatively stable govt. But that may not matter when you have children to feed TODAY.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Geldain:

With only anecdotal evidence to validate them. This doesn’t strengthen any of your arguments. In fact, from where I sit, it weakens them considerably.

Not all of my evidence has been anecdotal. I don’t exactly have journal articles handy, but I have made several nonanecdotal arguments. I do use anecdontes, like the fact that I know people who will die in Haiti to highlight the human costs of our policies, but if you think those are all my arguments. Then you are clearly not listening to me. So, if you are not going to listen to me, ,then don’t waste my time.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Jeffrey:

Yes calling someone a racist can be considering racism… if you look at the meaning of which said ppl intended… white ppl bad just because they are white and don’t want ppl breaking laws to get here and sucking thier tax money that could go to better helath benefits for the LEGAL residents.

How about you deal with the fact that the illegal aliens are breaking the law and need to be stopped.

I never said that all white people are bad. If I can use more anecdotal evidence. I have a white roomate. Every man I have dated in the past four years has been white I don’t think that all white people are bad. However, I do think some people white people are racists (There are also plenty of anti-Cuban racist African-Americans in Miami). And I also think that some of the motivation of this is race.

As for which fact, I should focus, that’s for me to decide. The fact that people are coming here illegal looking for jobs does not factor very highly on my list of priorities. The possibility that the govt. might make their lives harder is a big concern mine. Those are my priorities.

Kendy