Time and Starlight

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I think you’ll have to unpack this a bit more. “cdk light speed”?
That means the idea that the speed of light was greater in the past.
Now, I provided the video, I tried to take notes on it; the least YOU can do is watch it for yourself. You seem to agree with some, (most?) of what Dr. Lisle says so…I guess I don’t get where the problem is. Because it happens to be AiG?
 
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leonhardprintz:
I think you’ll have to unpack this a bit more. “cdk light speed”?
That means the idea that the speed of light was greater in the past.
Now, I provided the video, I tried to take notes on it; the least YOU can do is watch it for yourself. You seem to agree with some, (most?) of what Dr. Lisle says so…I guess I don’t get where the problem is. Because it happens to be AiG?
As I said before, the tired light hypothesis was floated in the 1940s, and pretty much dead by the 1950s. The fact that it gets resurrected by YECs doesn’t make it any more valid today than it was sixty years ago, and as I stated before, the tired light hypothesis was never even floated to try to make the Universe younger, but rather, as with Einstein’s Cosmological Constant, to try to get rid of the expansion inherent in General Relativity. It was, in fact, an attempt not to make the universe young, but to make the universe infinite in time. AIG is trying to use the hypothesis for something it was never intended.
 
As I said before, the tired light hypothesis was floated in the 1940s, and pretty much dead by the 1950s. The fact that it gets resurrected by YECs doesn’t make it any more valid today than it was sixty years ago, and as I stated before,
As I said before, Dr. Lisle said nothing shows that this has happened.

The problem is speed of light is not arbitrary it’s
Iinked to nature, but he said there’s no compelling evidence that this is true, lots of problems to be worked out. Which you’d know and understand better if you, 1) watched the video for yourself
and, 2) understand physics and equations, which I dont.

I made it clear that i was trying to listen and type at the same time, not being very good at taking the notes, but, again, you’re free to watch it yourself so you have some idea what you’re objecting to.


^ also by Dr. Lisle
 
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Well, if Dr. Lisle said it, I guess that settles it.

People like this prey on people who don’t understand the science behind it but are impressed by credentials and big words. You admit that you don’t understand the physics and equations, but you’re clearly swayed by his claims about them. But that means you’re not swayed by his arguments; you’re just swayed by a guy who sounds smart.

Lisle is arguing fervently against the scientific consensus. That, on its own, is fine; the scientific consensus has been wrong before. But you understand neither the scientific consensus nor his arguments against it.

Please, take some time to study some physics before just deciding that this one guy will change your view on it. Because it’s not his physics arguments that are swaying you; it’s just a guy saying things that sound smart.
 
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First of all, anyone who says the speed of light isn’t integral to other aspects of physics doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

I’m sorry, I’m sure you find it compelling. I won’t waste my time.
 
People like this prey on people who don’t understand the science behind it but are impressed by credentials and big words
I really doubt he’s trying to knowingly mislead those of us who don’t understand science.
 
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HopkinsReb:
People like this prey on people who don’t understand the science behind it but are impressed by credentials and big words
I really doubt he’s trying to knowingly mislead those of us who don’t understand science.
Whether knowingly or not, he’s trying to mislead you.

But you responded to the least important part of my post. If you’re going to swim against the stream in science, it is wise to be sure that you understand the science in question. And, by your own admission, you don’t.

I don’t know exactly how much work it would take to get a decent understanding of the proofs. I’ve studied relativity mathematically (and relativity involves the speed of light), but I haven’t studied its proofs. To understand it as a phenomenon just takes a couple well-constructed metaphors. But the proofs are there, if you care to learn the math and seek them out.
 
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I admit your motives are unclear to me, though on the balance of probabilities you seem to want to use Benedict’s statement as being anti-evolution. If you have a more nuanced view, I’m all ears
Neither Benedict or the Church are anti-evolution (as you know), but some Catholics are, for reasons that escape me.
 
You clearly haven’t read what I’ve posted in the recent past. Pope Benedict:

In the book, Benedict reflected on a 1996 comment of his predecessor, John Paul II, who said that Charles Darwin’s theories on evolution were sound, as long as they took into account that creation was the work of God, and that Darwin’s theory of evolution was “more than a hypothesis.”

“The pope (John Paul) had his reasons for saying this,” Benedict said. “But it is also true that the theory of evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory.”

Benedict added that the immense time span that evolution covers made it impossible to conduct experiments in a controlled environment to finally verify or disprove the theory.

“We cannot haul 10,000 generations into the laboratory,” he said.
 
I don’t know exactly how much work it would take to get a decent understanding of the proofs. I’ve studied relativity mathematically (and relativity involves the speed of light), but I haven’t studied its proofs. To understand it as a phenomenon just takes a couple well-constructed metaphors. But the proofs are there, if you care to learn the math and seek them out.
I’ll never be able to learn the math. So…
 
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HopkinsReb:
I don’t know exactly how much work it would take to get a decent understanding of the proofs. I’ve studied relativity mathematically (and relativity involves the speed of light), but I haven’t studied its proofs. To understand it as a phenomenon just takes a couple well-constructed metaphors. But the proofs are there, if you care to learn the math and seek them out.
I’ll never be able to learn the math. So…
Ok. So why, if you don’t understand the math and say that you’ll never be able to, would you defer to a fringe argument instead of the argument of almost the entire body of learned physicists of the last century?
 
Is everyone here saying that all creationist proposals are incorrect?

I also have a UCC on my list that’s not a creationist church.
 
Is everyone here saying that all creationist proposals are incorrect?

I also have a UCC on my list that’s not a creationist church.
I’m saying that any proposal according to which the universe is just a few thousand years old is incorrect.
 
Ok. So why, if you don’t understand the math and say that you’ll never be able to, would you defer to a fringe argument instead of the argument of almost the entire body of learned physicists of the last century?
Because I like the church and the people I’ve met there. Of course, I’d probably feel the same about other churches if I’d give them a try.
 
I don’t believe Pope Benedict was in error. It is impossible to perform experiments to verify or disprove.

However, another man without a science education, Pope John Paul II, gets a pass because he gave what some think is the “right” answer.
 
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HopkinsReb:
People like this prey on people who don’t understand the science behind it but are impressed by credentials and big words
I really doubt he’s trying to knowingly mislead those of us who don’t understand science.
In the case of people like Dr. Lisle, I’m not nearly so charitable. That he’s earned an astrophysics degree tells me he knows well enough how the speed of light relates to other physical properties like the fine structure constant. I’m going to be blunt; either he has some sort of mental illness (at the very least a very severe form of compartmentalization) or he’s knowingly misrepresenting and rejecting over a century of research.

You can’t just alter c without altering pretty much everything in modern physics. Classical physics from Maxwell and Lorentz forward has to be tossed out, and pretty much all of Quantum Mechanics, including the Standard Model, gets the heave ho too. So let me ask, what’s more reasonable, that Dr. Lisle is talking a load of nonsense, or pretty much all of physics from the late 19th century onward is invalid?

And let’s keep in mind that these theories; SR, GR and QM are among the most successful scientific theories ever developed, and explain a wide range of phenomenon. To basically kick them out the door simply to prop up Young Earth Creationism seems utterly absurd, perhaps even insane. I think it well and truly is time for YECs to get over themselves, and besides, Sola Scriptura is most definitely not a Catholic doctrine, and by and large was the product of some Protestant groups wanting to get rid of what they viewed as the taint of Catholicism by “going back to the Book”.

Here’s the facts. The universe is somewhere around 13.8 billion years old. The speed of light has been constant for almost all (if not all) of that time. We know that General Relativity specifically predicted an expanding universe that had a starting point (we know it because even Einstein tried to get rid of the singularity and preserve the Steady State model). We know that the amount of hydrogen, helium and lithium in the observable universe cannot be explained by solar nucleosynthesis (and furthermore, the initial hydrogen and helium that formed the first stars had to pre-exist the first generation of stars). We know that the CMBR’s high degree of homogeneity means the Early Universe passed from a phase of opacity and at some point the photons were “liberated” as the Universe cooled. We know space is expanding, and furthermore, we know that expansion is in fact speeding up.

Your “expert” is wrong, and I suspect he knows he’s wrong. But he’s made quite a career out of working for ICR and loaning his credentials to give weight to what is a pack of distortions, nonsense and out and out lies.

Here’s my advice. If your faith only survives because of a literal interpretation of Genesis, then that’s a problem with your faith. The science has been well established since the 1960s, when the CMBR was discovered. The universe, or at least the observable universe as we know it, started over 13 billion years ago.
 
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HopkinsReb:
Ok. So why, if you don’t understand the math and say that you’ll never be able to, would you defer to a fringe argument instead of the argument of almost the entire body of learned physicists of the last century?
Because I like the church and the people I’ve met there. Of course, I’d probably feel the same about other churches if I’d give them a try.
I find this answer very bizarre. I ask why you’d accept a fringe position on physics, and you say it’s because you like the people in a particular church.

I’m sure you could find some very nice physicists who aren’t young-earthers. Would that convince you of the scientific consensus?
 
I don’t believe Pope Benedict was in error. It is impossible to perform experiments to verify or disprove.

However, another man without a science education, Pope John Paul II, gets a pass because he gave what some think is the “right” answer.
You’re “picking popes” is amusing. You’re basically quote mining to get the answer that you want.
 
I’m saying that any proposal according to which the universe is just a few thousand years old is incorrect.
Then why would this pastor, who isn’t trying to deceive me, become a pastor of the LCMS? Why would he adhere to a young earth?
 
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