Vice Presidential Debate

[ringil]

If you believe in pro choice catholics I suppose. But even an apologist on this site wouldn’t accept that.forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=623915 Biden is Catholic because he was baptized so. He is however not a practicing catholic based on being pro abortion.

There is Catholic and non-Catholic. That was the post I was responding to.

The designation “Catholic in name” does not exist.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Opnions on who won will fall strictly according to party preference.
…

According to that Pew study that came out a few days ago 45% of Catholics say abortion should be illegal while 50% say legal.

It seem to come down to the argument Biden made last night that he is personally against abortion but sees it as a religious issue not to be imposed on others. Evidently 50% of Catholics see it that way. I do not. It is in a category where religion, ethics and law overlap just as many other issues.

How can we more clearly address this sort of argument?

 

[_Abyssinia]

Opnions on who won will fall strictly according to party preference.
…

According to that Pew study that came out a few days ago 45% of Catholics say abortion should be illegal while 50% say legal.

It seem to come down to the argument Biden made last night that he is personally against abortion but sees it as a religious issue not to be imposed on others. Evidently 50% of Catholics see it that way. I do not. It is in a category where religion, ethics and law overlap just as many other issues.

How can we more clearly address this sort of argument?

How many of those polled actually know what the Church teaches on abortion?

 

[SamH]

How many of those polled actually know what the Church teaches on abortion?

Or know where their local Catholic church is.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

If you believe in pro choice catholics I suppose. But even an apologist on this site wouldn’t accept that.forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=623915 Biden is Catholic because he was baptized so. He is however not a practicing catholic based on being pro abortion.

A baptized Catholic is a Catholic. Being pro-choice, as opposed to pro-abortion, means that you are not faithful to Church teachings. It doesn’t mean that one is not a practicing Catholic. Pro-choice Catholics may well attend Mass faithfully, give to the Church, and raise their children as Catholics.

Get the terms straight or else risk talking past those with whom you were discussing the topic.

In my opinion anyway.

 

[LisaA]

A baptized Catholic is a Catholic. Being pro-choice, as opposed to pro-abortion, means that you are not faithful to Church teachings. It doesn’t mean that one is not a practicing Catholic. Pro-choice Catholics may well attend Mass faithfully, give to the Church, and raise their children as Catholics.

Get the terms straight or else risk talking past those with whom you were discussing the topic.

In my opinion anyway.

Rich, be still my beating heart, we agree! As a convert who has as friends several cradle Catholics, I understand that in practice and acceptance of the Church’s teachings, there are differences. My dear friend was born, raised, schooled, and was first married in the Church. She hasn’t been to Mass in years. She is thrice divorced and didn’t receive annulments. She believes in abortion, gay marriage and thinks women should be priests But I believe that she is still a Catholic (maybe I am wrong if somehow she has automatically excommunicated herself ?). OTOH even she wouldn’t claim to be a faithful practicing Catholic.

What does REALLY irk me are those like Nancy Pelosi and Kathleen Sebelius who are so public with their heresy. What do we call them? Maybe like Jews we need terms such as Orthodox…

I think Biden in his heart of hearts is more in alignment with the Church than he claims in public. I heard that he was against the HHS Mandate but his original position has flipped. Sadly I think his political career is his real god.

Lisa

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Rich, be still my beating heart, we agree! As a convert who has as friends several cradle Catholics, I understand that in practice and acceptance of the Church’s teachings, there are differences. My dear friend was born, raised, schooled, and was first married in the Church. She hasn’t been to Mass in years. She is thrice divorced and didn’t receive annulments. She believes in abortion, gay marriage and thinks women should be priests But I believe that she is still a Catholic (maybe I am wrong if somehow she has automatically excommunicated herself ?). OTOH even she wouldn’t claim to be a faithful practicing Catholic.

What does REALLY irk me are those like Nancy Pelosi and Kathleen Sebelius who are so public with their heresy. What do we call them? Maybe like Jews we need terms such as Orthodox…

I think Biden in his heart of hearts is more in alignment with the Church than he claims in public. I heard that he was against the HHS Mandate but his original position has flipped. Sadly I think his political career is his real god.

Lisa

I want to remind everyone who thinks that you can be a “Catholic in good standing” (I need to distinguish between Catholics who submit to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church and those baptised Catholics who reject it, whether they are practicing or not) and support abortion in any way, including supporting politicians who vote in favor on continuing abortion, would be well to read Blessed John Paul the Great’s “Evangelium Vitae” and what the Holy Father has to say on the matter. In regards to faith and morals, the pope cannot err on this topic and when he speaks, he speaks with the authority of Jesus.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Rich, be still my beating heart, we agree!

One for the record books!

What does REALLY irk me are those like Nancy Pelosi and Kathleen Sebelius who are so public with their heresy. What do we call them? Maybe like Jews we need terms such as Orthodox.

Second agreement. Can my heart stand it?.

I think Biden in his heart of hearts is more in alignment with the Church than he claims in public. I heard that he was against the HHS Mandate but his original position has flipped. Sadly I think his political career is his real god.

Now I’m going to have to put one of my nitroglycerin pills under my tongue.

Three out of three. What’s next after this? Peace on earth?

 

[Elizabeth502]

But I believe that she is still a Catholic (maybe I am wrong if somehow she has automatically excommunicated herself ?). OTOH even she wouldn’t claim to be a faithful practicing Catholic.

Regarding excommunication in general: It does not remove one’s Catholic identity; it merely separates one from sacramental communion with the Church, until one repairs that separation by taking the necessary steps to align oneself with faithful, legitimate practice.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Regarding excommunication in general: It does not remove one’s Catholic identity; it merely separates one from sacramental communion with the Church, until one repairs that separation by taking the necessary steps to align oneself with faithful, legitimate practice.

Succinct and exactly what excommunication does!

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Regarding excommunication in general: It does not remove one’s Catholic identity; it merely separates one from sacramental communion with the Church, until one repairs that separation by taking the necessary steps to align oneself with faithful, legitimate practice.

Which requires action from one’s bishop and in some severe cases, the Pope himself, even in the case of latae sententia excommunication. It needs to be reminded that the local ordinary will not grant remission from latae sententia excommunication if it is apparent that the penitent intends to remain disobedient.

 

[Beautiful]

I want to remind everyone who thinks that you can be a “Catholic in good standing” (I need to distinguish between Catholics who submit to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church and those baptised Catholics who reject it, whether they are practicing or not) and support abortion in any way, including supporting politicians who vote in favor on continuing abortion, would be well to read Blessed John Paul the Great’s “Evangelium Vitae” and what the Holy Father has to say on the matter. In regards to faith and morals, the pope cannot err on this topic and when he speaks, he speaks with the authority of Jesus.

I understand completely but in my heart of hearts…I know that any move away from any kind of legal abortion law is a move in the right direction.
After so many years of legalized abortions, a clean cut from the past is not likely to happen.
Think of all the souls who have been aborted…think of all the people in mortal sin! The number is many! All those people need healing.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I understand completely but in my heart of hearts…I know that any move away from any kind of legal abortion law is a move in the right direction.
After so many years of legalized abortions, a clean cut from the past is not likely to happen.

Right, but if people who called themselves Catholic would do the Catholic thing and actually follow the teachings of the Church, imaging how different a place this country would be.

 

[Beautiful]

Right, but if people who called themselves Catholic would do the Catholic thing and actually follow the teachings of the Church, imaging how different a place this country would be.

The world would be a different place! A better place! Americans have been blessed with much…only to squander much of it away. I think about this everyday.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

The world would be a different place! A better place! Americans have been blessed with much…only to squander much of it away. I think about this everyday.

Our family offers our daily Divine Mercy chaplet every day specifically for this.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

How many of those polled actually know what the Church teaches on abortion?

Well, 73% of Catholics said they were “Religious” and 60% said their religion is “Very Important”.

But, is belief that life begins at conception and that abortion is an intrinsic evil, a religious belief?
All people do hold that belief. All Christians do not hold that belief.
I think the Catholic Church is the only church to make that public statement.
So is Biden right? Does the abortion issue depend on one’s religion?
If so, do we have a right to “impose” it on others?

I think we have a right to try to influence others including the legislature to pass laws.

 

[LisaA]

I want to remind everyone who thinks that you can be a “Catholic in good standing” (I need to distinguish between Catholics who submit to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church and those baptised Catholics who reject it, whether they are practicing or not) and support abortion in any way, including supporting politicians who vote in favor on continuing abortion, would be well to read Blessed John Paul the Great’s “Evangelium Vitae” and what the Holy Father has to say on the matter. In regards to faith and morals, the pope cannot err on this topic and when he speaks, he speaks with the authority of Jesus.

Scott thank you. Is there a proper term for someone like my friend, baptized Catholic but neither in agreement with the Magisterium nor practicing? She has a lot of company sadly. Whenever I hear that “50% of Catholics Support Legal Abortion” I imagine someone like her.

What about Biden? How do we refer to a public figure who openly opposes the Church’s position on the non-negotiables? I don’t think he is as blatant or as damaging as Sebelius (whom I understand was asked not to compromise her Priest by partaking in the Eucharist). But he gives a lot of non-practicing Catholics a pass on their own heretical ideas.

Lisa

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Scott thank you. Is there a proper term for someone like my friend, baptized Catholic but neither in agreement with the Magisterium nor practicing? She has a lot of company sadly. Whenever I hear that “50% of Catholics Support Legal Abortion” I imagine someone like her.

Lisa

Lapsed?

Protestant?

Masochist?

 

[Elizabeth502]

he gives a lot of non-practicing Catholics a pass on their own heretical ideas.

Indeed.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Well, 73% of Catholics said they were “Religious” and 60% said their religion is “Very Important”.

But, is belief that life begins at conception and that abortion is an intrinsic evil, a religious belief?
All people do hold that belief. All Christians do not hold that belief.
I think the Catholic Church is the only church to make that public statement.
So is Biden right? Does the abortion issue depend on one’s religion?
If so, do we have a right to “impose” it on others?

I think we have a right to try to influence others including the legislature to pass laws.

That does not mean they know what the Church teaches though. Life beginning at conception has been known by Catholicism for a long time and confirmed by science

April 1981 Congress did hearings on answering when does life begins. 57 witnesses, internationally known scientists have testimony. 1 scientist disagreed philosophically, but all the other scientists tesified that life began at conception

Here are what some of the experts said

Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni, professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at the University of Pennsylvania, stated:

“I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception…. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life….

I am no more prepared to say that these early stages [of development in the womb] represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty…is not a human being. This is human life at every stage.”

Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris, was the discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. Dr. LeJeune testified to the Judiciary Subcommittee, “after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being.” He stated that this “is no longer a matter of taste or opinion,” and “not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.” He added, “Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.”

Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic: “By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.”

Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School: “It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive…. It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception…. Our laws, one function of which is to help preserve the lives of our people, should be based on accurate scientific data.”

Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School: “The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter—the beginning is conception. This straightforward biological fact should not be distorted to serve sociological, political, or economic goals.”

A prominent physician points out that at these Senate hearings, “Pro-abortionists, though invited to do so, failed to produce even a single expert witness who would specifically testify that life begins at any point other than conception or implantation. Only one witness said no one can tell when life begins.”2

Many other prominent scientists and physicians have likewise affirmed with certainty that human life begins at conception:

Ashley Montague, a geneticist and professor at Harvard and Rutgers, is unsympathetic to the prolife cause. Nevertheless, he affirms unequivocally, “The basic fact is simple: life begins not at birth, but conception.”3

Dr Robert George in his book Embryo says

That is, in human reproduction, when sperm joins ovum, these two individual cells cease to be, and their union generates a new and distinct organism. This organism is a whole, though in the beginning developmentally immature, member of the human species. Readers need not take our word for this: They can consult any of the standard human-embryology texts, such as Moore and Persaud’s The Developing Human, Larsen’s Human Embryology, Carlson’s Human Embryology & Developmental Biology, and O’Rahilly and Mueller’s Human Embryology & Teratology

---

Human embryos, whether they are formed by fertilization (natural or in vitro) or by successful somatic-cell nuclear transfer (SCNT — i.e., cloning), do have the internal resources and active disposition to develop themselves to the mature stage of a human organism, requiring only a suitable environment and nutrition. In fact, scientists distinguish embryos from other cells or clusters of cells precisely by their self-directed, integral functioning — their organismal behavior. Thus, human embryos are what the embryology textbooks say they are, namely, human organisms — living individuals of the human species — at the earliest developmental stage

Keith L Moore and T. v n Persuad in* The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology*, page 16 say

Human development begins at fertilization when a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoon) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to produce a single cell, a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual