Was Jesus a heretic for teaching works salvation?

[mikeledes]

You forgot to add these verses:

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

1 Timothy 6:18-19

18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

John 5:28-29

28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 25:34-36, 46

**34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. **

WHY?

** 35’FOR** I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Romans 2:6-7

**6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good **seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

God Bless,
Michael

And yet these verses still stand. Note that they include verses from the Epistles.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Sean_Boyle]

You answered it yourself - because He was born A JEW, "born under the Law:"Gal. 4:4-5 "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."As a Man, born under the Law (a Jew) He fulfilled it (Matt. 5:17). Yet He Himself is the "end of the Law:"Rom. 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."From where do you get the idea that God needed to justify the Law? It wasn’t Christ’s perfect obedience to the Law that saves (it demonstrated Him to be God’s unblemished Lamb), it was His obedience to death on a cross, His substitutionary death.

As a person of faith, I can not travel this slippery slope that you try to create. This gentile justification vesus Jewish justification system that you seem to preach. Paul is not the mohamad of the gentile world.(no trying to offend anyone with that statement) He was a loyal Catholic bishop to Christ and his Church. He was sent by God to guide Christ’s Church for gentiles and Jews alike. Not one over the other.

The Catholic Church is the continuation of the Jewish faith after the risen Christ. After pentcost the hearts of the believers were opened to view the fullness of truth from God, thus the changes to the practices in faith during the apostlic age. There are not two separte forms of justification. Only one! God fullfilled his promise to his people, and today they still follow God teachings and laws in the Catholic Church.

Like it or not that is how God formed the Church.

 

[down_under]

this is all so common. No one listening everyone comming to the discussion just using the time someone else is talking to consider there reply. Lets change the beat. If you believe in works and faith
if you are a sola fetia fan consider this telling verse.

I make up in my body what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.

Tell me what do you suspose this means. It is in the bible. It is scripture. What could Paul be talking about. The suffering of Christ were perfect. In light of this last statement consider it.

 

[Fidelis]

You think my faith in the cross of Christ alone, the word (message/doctrine) of the cross to save is foolishness?

My remark was directed at your adherence to a doctrine (Sola Fide) that is not found in the Bible and was invented 1500 years after the birth of Christianity. It is significant that you chose to ignore that part of the post.

 

[guanophore]

My remark was directed at your adherence to a doctrine (Sola Fide) that is not found in the Bible and was invented 1500 years after the birth of Christianity. It is significant that you chose to ignore that part of the post.

This is not true, Fidelis. Apophasis has completely demonstrated that this doctrine CAN and IS found in the bible! Just like justification for slavery, subjugation of women, and a number of other things, it can be done if one will only focus exclusively on certain verses, and find reasons how other verses can be minimized or discounted.

 

[guanophore]

When you’re preaching salvation based on obedience to commandments, then you’ve got to be specific. Which commandments produce salvation and possess they key to open Paradise?

Matt 22:35-40
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”

However, your characterization that salvation is based on obedience is erroneous.

Heb 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."

If one is to find salvation, one must draw near in faith. Loving God and one’s neighbor then flow out of this saving faith. It is not right to separate the fruit from the vine, or the root of the vine.

 

[kaycee]

My remark was directed at your adherence to a doctrine (Sola Fide) that is not found in the Bible and was invented 1500 years after the birth of Christianity. It is significant that you chose to ignore that part of the post.

That sentiment is clearly incorrect. Many Church Fathers defined Sola Scriptura as such.

“For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.” - Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, 4:17)

 

[nerfherder]

apophasis;2199674:

Agree with the verse…

Paul is speaking as a bishop of the Catholic Church here. Context is everything…

Note quote posted not by nerfherder but by apophasis!

 

[guanophore]

My remark was directed at your adherence to a doctrine (Sola Fide) that is not found in the Bible and was invented 1500 years after the birth of Christianity. It is significant that you chose to ignore that part of the post.

That sentiment is clearly incorrect. Many Church Fathers defined Sola Scriptura as such.

“For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.” - Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, 4:17)

I think you are mixing and matching your Solas, kaycee. Fideles is talking about Sola Fida, and your answer is about Sola Scriptura. A fun read is the thread called “none of the Catholic teachings come from the Bible”. In that thread you can see why Catholics do not subscribe to Sola Scriptura.

The Fathers, both ancient and modern, all recognize that the scripture is the infallible Word of God. No Catholic teaching contradicts what is written in the scripture.

Furthermore, the “demonstration of the Holy Scriptures” is Jesus Himself.
39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
John 5:38-41

How can you find life? Although the scriptures point to Jesus, the book does not contain the Life, the Life is found in the person of Jesus. This is why the Catholic Church does not approve of Sola Scriptura. The Life is found in a person, not the book about HIm.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures." - Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, 4:17)

But if we are to listen only to Scriptura then why should we listen to the Church Fathers?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Sean Boyle;2199811:

Note quote posted not by nerfherder but by apophasis!

Sorry for the confusion nerfherder. Not sure how that happened.

 

[mikeledes]

Those who have been regenerated by God will obey. Obedience will follow salvation by Grace through Faith. Obeying and good works are the fruit that results from salvation, not to earn salvation.

Christians have been adopted as sons and daughters of God Thru Faith. We are not working to become children of God. We produce fruit because WE ARE Children of God.

And yet the children of God disobey when they sin. Or does the Child of God live a sin free life after justification? The children of God do not become automatons. The fact that they can sin and “grieve” the Holy Spirit clearly points to the fact a Christian can resist doing the will of God at times.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

In order to undertand Paul’s teachings in Romans 4, we must undertand the historical and theological context of what was going on. When Paul uses the term “Law”, he is referring to the Law of Moses as a whole (Moral and Ceremonial). In other words, “the Law” is the Old Covenant. The Jews and Jewish “Christians” claimed that righteousness and salvation could be obtained through observance of the Old Covenant (Acts 15).

Why did this pose a problem to the Christian gospel of salvation? If salvation and righteousness could be accomplished by mere observance of the Law, then the work of Christ would not be necessary. We would be able to pay the eternal debt of our sins and break the power sin and death over our lives. And yet, Paul points out that the Law did not accomplish that. What it did was point to our own sinfulness and made us aware of our inability to break the power of sin and death in our lives:

Romans 7:11-12

** 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. **

It pointed to and condemned our sins, but did not provide the means to liberate ourselves from the power of sin and death. Hence the necessity of Jesus:

Romans 8:2-4

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Through and in Christ, the debt of our sins were paid and the power of sin was broken. On the basis of Christ’s work on the Cross, the Christian is now liberated from the debt and power of sin and is now free to walk in the Spirit, something they could not do while still under the “flesh.”

Romans 8:6-8

6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Now that we are freed from the power of sin and death, we enjoy the freedom to live in righteousness, in a way that pleases God:

Romans 6:12-14, 18-19

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

All of this was accomplished not on the basis of the Old Covenant, which is the point of Romans 4. To be continued…

Romans 4 and related passages are about how we are freed from sin and the condemnation due to our sin and become righteous before God. The Law was absolutely incapable of freeing us from the eternal debt of sin and hence the necessity of Christ.

Once we have been justified, we are transferred from being under the Law of Moses to being under the Law of Christ. And the love of Christ is to love one another. The Law of Christ is the perfection and fulfillment of the Law of Moses (the Old Covenant)By this “perfect law, the law of liberty” (James 1:25) we shall be judged:

James 2:12
**12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. **

We clearly see this in Matthew 25:31-46. The sheep and the goats are judged on the basis on how much they have loved. Of course, this ability to love is itself a free gift of God. But this gift must be activated in the life of the Christian in order to fulfill the Law of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[kaycee]

And yet the children of God disobey when they sin. Or does the Child of God live a sin free life after justification? The children of God do not become automatons. The fact that they can sin and “grieve” the Holy Spirit clearly points to the fact a Christian can resist doing the will of God at times.

God Bless,
Michael

Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

 

[mikeledes]

The work of Christ on the Cross was not merely substitutionary. The Cross also freed us from the power of sin so that we could bear fruit to God:

Romans 7:4

**4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. **

Galatians 5:1,6,14:

**1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” **

Christ set us free from the power of sin and death so that we could have the freedom to love God and neighbor. While being enslaved to sin and in the flesh, the freedom to love and serve God and neighbor was impossible. But now we have the freedom to fulfill the law of Christ and Paul warns Christians what will happen if they use this new found freedom to satisfy the desires of the flesh:

Galatians 5:19-21

**19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. **

A warning is not necessary if there is no threat of danger and Christians are more than capable of commiting the “deeds of the flesh” listed by Paul.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

1 Timothy 3:6

**6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. **

The cause of “falling into condemnation” is his becoming conceited, not a lack of genuine faith. You cannot “fall into” something you never escaped to begin with.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[runandsew]

To “perfect” faith means to cause one’s faith to mature. From Gen. 15:6 on Abraham exercised his personal faith “in the Lord” to the point that by the time God tested him with the sacrifice of Isaac, his faith “in the Lord” had greatly matured. He trusted Him completely - even to raise his only son from the dead (a type of Christ).

But it was his faith “in the Lord” by which God justified him back in Gen. 15:6. It was not his justification that matured, but his faith “in the Lord.”

Catholicism begins with one’s trust (faith) in the church of Rome. It’s “infallible” authority, its hierarchy, its canon law and the power of its sacerdotal/sacramental system.

There lies the difference. In whom or what does one place his faith? This determines one’s salvation/justification.

NO, Catholicism starts with baptism, we are baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is where we enter the family of God.

We do not baptize in the Name of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

 

[clmowry]

No way no how. This is perhaps the silliest claim I’ve ever seen made.

Chuck

Does it interest you that 100% of Catholics that I meet at their doors claim salvation by their own good deeds?

Does it interest you that they do not claim the cross for salvation but their works and that they are stunned to find out that you cannot earn salvation? It is the fruit of the doctrinal teaching…it is very confused, to be totally honest.

 

[nerfherder]

Why can’t I get a straight answer?

Because there is no straight answer yet on this thread. Let me try, from my personal experience and belief.

.

Matt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

James 2: 13For he shall have judgment without mercy, who hath shown no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. 14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and hath not works? Can faith save him? … 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, “Thou hast faith, and I have works.” Show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

The quotation from CCC is interesting (Fidelis #91), for it seems to dance slightly around what would seem to be an obvious conclusion. It first states that, inevitably, we must have faith for salvation.

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.

“Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”

But then (2005) it becomes slightly inarticulate (for me) but I read it to mean, clearly: (1) we have faith, plus (2) our works for salvation; (3) by our fruits shall we be known as followers of Christ; and (4) contemplation of God’s mercy will sustain us and empower us in our life in Christ.

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works

to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits” - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

That’s me, done and cooked. Christ’s mission is at issue here. He brought the message of salvation, and through his words forced humanity to turn and confront God again. He also brought a message of healing, compassion, hope and love - caritas - without which his mission was not complete: Do unto others is not such a hard thing to understand.

Is it not possible to forget Luther and Calvin, protestants and Catholics and go back to the words of the scripture - Jesus and his disciples and apostles. What does it matter whether a protestant believes this, or a Catholic believes that? As I said above, the issue will not be resolved, and it is up to the individual believer to establish his or her relationship with Christ. The belief of one does not invalidate the belief of The Other.

You asked for an answer:

a) Yes, I can enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments in the least.

b) No, I cannot enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments, however imperfectly.

You know that (b) is correct (of course we could have gone on to (h) or (r) possibilities). All Christians know there is a learning curve in faith, belief and action. God chose us at birth: we are His children. We accept or reject His love. If we accept, we can only accept as feeble beings, with the intention of trying hard to exemplify the nature of His Son.

Quite frankly, I do not think that God is particularly concerned about running water baptism, or transubstantiation, or how many angels can stand on the head of a pin (the old middle-ages on-going battle). What he is concerned about - as we see in the scriptures quoted above - is that we follow Christ, in faith and by example in our daily lives of work and play and picking up a child who has fallen down, or comforting the homeless.

[/QUOTE]

 

[nerfherder]

I did not deny that Jesus says we need faith, and that we need grace to enter heaven… Why can’t I get a straight answer?

Because there is no straight answer yet on this thread. Let me try, from my personal experience and belief.

The following from the scriptures, is very clear to me, and the way I live my Christian life.

James 2 is totally persuasive. I reviewed this thread, and did not see the James 2 verses quoted.

Forget about ‘how many angels you can get on the head of a pin?’ type arguments; forget about ‘out of context’. This is what the scripture clearly says:

Acts 26:20 (King James Version) But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Matt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

James 2: 13For he shall have judgment without mercy, who hath shown no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. 14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and hath not works? Can faith save him? … 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, “Thou hast faith, and I have works.” Show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

The quotation from CCC is interesting (Fidelis #91), for it seems to dance slightly around what would seem to be an obvious conclusion. It first states that, inevitably, we must have faith for salvation.

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”

But then (2005) it becomes slightly inarticulate (for me) but I read it to mean, clearly: (1) we have faith, plus (2) our works for salvation; (3) by our fruits shall we be known as followers of Christ; and (4) contemplation of God’s mercy will sustain us and empower us in our life in Christ.

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits” - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

That’s me, done and cooked. Christ’s mission is at issue here. He brought the message of salvation, and through his words forced humanity to turn and confront God again. He also brought a message of healing, compassion, hope and love - caritas - without which his mission was not complete: Do unto others is not such a hard thing to understand.

Is it not possible to forget Luther and Calvin, protestants and Catholics and go back to the words of the scripture - Jesus and his disciples and apostles. What does it matter whether a protestant believes this, or a Catholic believes that? As I said above, the issue will not be resolved, and it is up to the individual believer to establish his or her relationship with Christ. The belief of one does not invalidate the belief of The Other.

You asked for an answer:

a) Yes, I can enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments in the least.

b) No, I cannot enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments, however imperfectly.

You know that (b) is correct (of course we could have gone on to (h) or (r) possibilities). All Christians know there is a learning curve in faith, belief and action. God chose us at birth: we are His children. We accept or reject His love. If we accept, we can only accept as feeble beings, with the intention of trying hard to exemplify the nature of His Son.

Quite frankly, I do not think that God is particularly concerned about running water baptism, or transubstantiation, or how many angels can stand on the head of a pin (the old middle-ages on-going battle). What he is concerned about - as we see in the scriptures quoted above - is that we follow Christ, in faith and by example in our daily lives of work and play and picking up a child who has fallen down, or comforting the homeless.

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