Was there a point that only God existed?

[Dovekin]

“Having been newly created, it was already in existence.”

And it still is completely meaningless.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

“Having been newly created, it was already in existence.”

And it still is completely meaningless.

When you create something, does it exist? Of course it does.

However, you’re asserting that, when the universe was already in existence, it wasn’t yet created / didn’t exist within a framework / had no physical extension.

Wanna talk about which of these two assertions is meaningless?

 

[Dovekin]

Wanna talk about which of these two assertions is meaningless?

Sure.

A gravitational singularity or spacetime singularity is a location in spacetime where the gravitational field of a celestial body becomes infinite in a way that does not depend on the coordinate system. The quantities used to measure gravitational field strength are the scalar invariant curvatures of spacetime, which includes a measure of the density of matter. Since such quantities become infinite within the singularity, the laws of normal spacetime cannot exist.

And

This primordial singularity is itself sometimes called “the Big Bang”, but the term can also refer to a more generic early hot, dense phase of the universe. In either case, “the Big Bang” as an event is also colloquially referred to as the “birth” of our universe since it represents the point in history where the universe can be verified to have entered into a regime where the laws of physics as we understand them (specifically general relativity and the standard model of particle physics) work.

 

[AlNg]

The Big Bang theory is the most widely accepted theory however, there is also the cyclical theory of the universe which involves a cycle of Big Bang followed by Big Crunch followed by Big Bang, etc. ad infinitum. In this scenario, God would not be alone at any time. And similarly in the multiverse model, with singularities popping in and out, God would not be alone at any time.

Loading…

en.wikipedia.org

Loading…

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Wanna talk about which of these two assertions is meaningless?

Sure.

Sigh. This is too easy…

Dovekin:

A gravitational singularity or spacetime singularity is a location in spacetime

Literally, it’s in the first sentence in your citation. It’s a location. In spacetime. Therefore it exists within the framework of time. That’s what I’ve been arguing for (and you’ve been arguing against) since the start of this discussion. Thanks for finally assenting to my assertion.

 

[Dovekin]

It’s a location . In spacetime . Therefore it exists within the framework of time.

…where the gravitational field of a celestial body becomes infinite in a way that does not depend on the coordinate system

If only you had read the end of the sentence.

Yes a location in spacetime. Within the framework of time, not so much.

 

[Gorgias]

If only you had read the end of the sentence.

If only you had. “In a way that does not depend on the coordinate system” doesn’t imply that the coordinate system doesn’t exist. But hey… nice try.

 

[ConstantLearner]

That I can agree with it but then how things look like from God’s perspective?

I don’t think anyone can give you an answer about that. None of us have experienced G-d’s timelessness. It’s even hard to grasp the concept.

 

[STT]

I don’t think anyone can give you an answer about that. None of us have experienced G-d’s timelessness. It’s even hard to grasp the concept.

It is in fact easy. We have two frame of reference, temporal and timeless. We know temporal. Timeless is a frame in which there is no change so God see everything at one big picture.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Well, of course that part is easy, but no human can really grasp what it is to have no beginning because all created things have a beginning.

 

[fisherman_carl]

“Was there a point [in time] when only God existed?”

No. Because if there was any point in time in existence with God then at least God and the point in time in question would exist.

If yes then God is subjected to time otherwise there was no act of creation (from God’s perspective).

No. God created time, all things are subject to Him. Creation occurs within time, but from God’s perspective He sees all of time, past, present and future all at once. He himself, is not in time.

Creation is in a sense always occurring as God holds everything in existence through out all of time. Even if creation always existed God has always been the ground of its existence. Thus, even if the universe always existed it would have always needed God to hold it in existence (The existence of contingent things at any moment requires a first cause of its existence any moment - see Aquinas’ 5 ways.)

 

[STT]

No. Because if there was any point in time in existence with God then at least God and the point in time in question would exist.

We are not discussing about a point in time yet. What we are interested is whether God was alone or not at one point.

 

[SalamKhan]

Time is a quantity, that is part of the world, which God created. One cannot take the part (time) out of the whole (world), and make the whole subject to the part. So not even the world can be made subject to time, let alone God. So the question is pointless.

 

[fisherman_carl]

We are not discussing about a point in time yet. What we are interested is whether God was alone or not at one point.

But you are taking about a point in time. You said “whether God was alone or not at one point [in time]”. You say at one point. What else could that be but a point in time? But since God is outside of time He is not subject to any point of time. But all of time is subject to him in the eternal now.

God acts in the eternal now. Thus, from our perspective creation has a beginning and continues forever. From God’s perspective it is all one act of creation from the eternal now. From our perspective God is changeless throughout all of history. He engages the entire time line all at once in one act from the eternal now.

 

[Francis]

@STT

God’s Eternity and Human Frailty Psalm 90: Lord, you have been our dwelling place in all generations.2 Before the mountains were brought forth,or ever you had formed the earth and the world from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

 

[STT]

But you are taking about a point in time. You said “whether God was alone or not at one point [in time]”. You say at one point. What else could that be but a point in time? But since God is outside of time He is not subject to any point of time. But all of time is subject to him in the eternal now.

God acts in the eternal now. Thus, from our perspective creation has a beginning and continues forever. From God’s perspective it is all one act of creation from the eternal now. From our perspective God is changeless throughout all of history. He engages the entire time line all at once in one act from the eternal now.

No. I am not talking about a point in time. It follows later that the point has to be a point in time.

 

[STT]

Time is a quantity, that is part of the world, which God created. One cannot take the part (time) out of the whole (world), and make the whole subject to the part. So not even the world can be made subject to time, let alone God. So the question is pointless.

The point is that you need time for act of creation.

 

[fisherman_carl]

You are trying to put God in time. What I am saying is He is outside of time and acts in the eternal now on all events of time all at once. So you can’t single out a single time as being privileged over another from God’s perspective.

 

[Gorgias]

But you are taking about a point in time. You said “whether God was alone or not at one point [in time]”. You say at one point. What else could that be but a point in time? But since God is outside of time He is not subject to any point of time.

It’s a poorly worded proposition.

It could have been worded: If God has existed eternally and creation had a beginning, can we conceive of a context in which only God existed?

@STT wants to say “yes – and therefore, ‘time’ pre-exists (and encompasses) God”.

He also wants to say “if you say ‘no’, then the ‘act of creation’ – which I claim requires ‘time’ as a prerequisite – could never have occurred. It did occur, so therefore, it must also pre-exist and encompass God.”

However, he’s not taking into account that ‘time’ could have been created, and could have pre-existed the ‘universe’, per se, without pre-existing God.

The point is that you need time for act of creation.

Not for the ‘act’ of creation. Perhaps as a dimension within which the universe exists, but that doesn’t mean that ‘time’, itself, isn’t created.

 

[STT]

You are trying to put God in time. What I am saying is He is outside of time and acts in the eternal now on all events of time all at once. So you can’t single out a single time as being privileged over another from God’s perspective.

I understand what you are saying. Let’s put it this way. God sees all events at once. This means that God sees the state at which there is no universe and there is a universe at once too. This means that there was no point (eternal point) at which God only existed from God’s perspective.