Why is Catholic Bashing soooo popular?

[GAHere]

My only question follows.

On one hand Catholics are being told to be aggressive to stamp out the evil within, but with the opposite hand Catholics are told they are wrong to aggressively support excommunication of people/politicians which support evil.

So which should it be?

Who has told Catholics to be ‘aggressive’ about anything?
Define ‘aggressive’? I’m not aware of any priest or bishop instructing me to be rude, obnoxious or confrontational about any church teachings.
I’ve heard and read that we are to live our lives according to church teachings. We are to educate and evangelize others with patience and love. We do not convert hearts and minds ‘aggressively’.

 

[CWBetts]

I believe we should not be afraid to speak boldly, which is my intent.

 

[Highwayhound]

Who has told Catholics to be ‘aggressive’ about anything?
Define ‘aggressive’? I’m not aware of any priest or bishop instructing me to be rude, obnoxious or confrontational about any church teachings.
.

My reading of the totality of this thread lead me to conclude that Catholics are perceived as not being aggressive in rooting out one type of evil that invaded Christ’s church. Then in a second instance the same individual indicated Catholics should not act when they see an evil in the church.

I did not quote the person as that would single them out and I might be perceived as being rude, obnoxious and confrontational to the poster. The person is in my estimation is making an attempt to have an honest exchange of ideas.

The word ‘aggressive’ was of my choosing. I think of excommunication as being a legitimate aggressive step in combating evil within Christ’s church.

My larger point was the inconsistency I perceived in the sum total of the posts. That being Catholics are to act upon one evil, but do nothing when they see another evil. If my perception of those posts is wrong then the poster can correct me.

I’ve heard and read that we are to live our lives according to church teachings. We are to educate and evangelize others with patience and love. We do not convert hearts and minds ‘aggressively’

With this I agree 100%. This is also why I chose not to single out one individual. My efforts were clumsy. I hope this clears up the point and does not obscure the bigger inconsistency which I saw.

God bless

 

[twb1621]

Sorry, but I hope you realize you just confirmed rather explicitly that the Church DOES try to push its views on non-members. You go so far as to claim a Catholic politician who doesn’t do this is “no longer Christian let alone Catholic”.

I understand very clearly. What you are saying is that the American political system is set up for citizen groups (including Catholics) to exert influence commensurate with their numbers and influence. I have not disputed that in any of my posts.

Whether it’s legal or not is not the point. I’m not saying Catholics should not be able to vote their beliefs. you can’t say Catholics have to impose their beliefs politically and in the same breath say Catholics don’t try to impose their beliefs on non-Catholics. Why don’t you just admit you feel that Catholics have a democratic and legal basis for attempting to impose their beliefs on non-Catholics. and by your way of thinking every politician who votes is forcing his beliefs on everyone else. You show how Catholic politicians have forced you to submit to their faith. You were a Catholic but claim no more. Obviously you are not forced to do anything by the Catholic Church. Get realistic, everyone politician or otherwise is voting their personal agenda in hopes the majority agrees with their vote. Thats fact, thats democracy, thats life. To say otherwise is ridiculous and not very truthful. Just because a catholic happens to vote for something that makes it forcing their faith on you? you have a major splinter in your eye and see only what you choose to see.

Under current law, no one is forcing Catholics to have abortions. Obviously you are free to propagate as much as you’re able. I do agree, however, that forcing Catholic hospitals and/or medical professionals to participate in abortions is wrong. I believe it should be clearly legally stated that no one, regardless of religious affiliation, should be forced to commit actions that are contrary to their conscience.No, many places just martyr the faithful if they don’t renounce Jesus. In this country, a person can be fired for saying Merry Christmas and a young boy or girl can be suspended from some schools for hugging a friend, its an outward sign of affection and not permitted. And yes, Catholic business owners can be sued or put out of business if they refuse to provide certain services against their beliefs. Is that the way you think it should be?

It is foolish and a display of a lack of knowledge to state the claims you have here. You have no idea what went on within the Church in regard to this issue but you make all kinds of judgments on everyone in the Catholic Church in trying to belittle that which you do not know or understand. Of course the Church should take care of the sinful within her. 1) DO you not believe in the covenant Jesus made in regard to His Church? 2) Do you belittle Jesus for allowing one like Judas within His apostles? 3) Or do you believe Jesus failed to handle things correctly by not “excommunicating” Him before the passion could occur? 4) I bet you you have.

Shuffling pedophiles around to various parishes is public knowledge. The $2 BILLION in payoffs to victims is fact, not rumor and innuendo.

Tell me, if you were abused as a youth, would you accept the fact that according to “statistics” you are likely to be a pedophile in which case you should be watched closely especially around youth and children?
Because I don’t believe what you believe, don’t be so arrogant as to presume I’m the one who doesn’t understand. Arrogant, no, direct, yes. You research (if you do) with full bios which limits the ability to accept all factors and make a rational assertion.
And as I posted previously: “And quit taking it personally. I’m not claiming all Catholics are evil. I’m saying that being Catholic doesn’t guarantee holiness - there have been, and currently are, plenty of evil people in the Catholic Church - from laity all the way up to Popes. If you truly care for your religion and your soul, you will want to cut out the evil where it crops up instead of blindly defending the organization as a whole and pretending there are no problems or that the problems don’t count.” To your credit, you agree that the Church should be handling the sinful. My argument is all about those “holier than thou” Catholics who try to deny the cancers in the Church while simultaneously trying to tell non-Catholics how to live their lives. I have respect for Catholics who demonstrate their faith through their actions. I will never respect Catholics (from laity all the way up to whoever happens to be Pope at the time) who voice their faith in a “do as I say, not as I do” manner while not acting consistently with their preaching. So your way of caring for your faith as a Catholic was to quit and go the other way when things got difficult? There are many of us very devoted to strengthening the Faith and working toward rightousness. what are the staistics on other Christian denominations, can you rattle those off also?
Regarding your questions at the end: 1) I do not believe that Jesus wrote anything down personally that has survived. Therefore, as a fact, everything is second hand at best. Therefore, I do not believe the detailed accuracy of every line in the Bible has or can ever be proven. Therefore, the Church’s detailed interpretations can never be proven “infallible”. 2) No. 3) No 4) You’re making assumptions that go far beyond the text I’ve posted - a mistake many Church leaders and theologians have been making regarding Jesus for 2,000 years.

I see, but you are not harbering any ill feelings right?
.

 

[twb1621]

To be clear, my parents raised me as Catholic. When I reached legal adulthood, I dropped it as I never actually bought into it - rather saw it as a social convention my parents followed. As I do not now, nor ever did believe that the Catholic Church actually has/had a monopoly on Truth, or that everything they teach was “God’s word” or even necessarily consistent with “God’s word”, it would not be unreasonable for you to say I never was Catholic to begin with. Although, since the Church appears to favor form over substance, and I did receive the usual sacraments while growing up, saying I was Catholic for 18 years would also be consistent from your perspective. (As a side note, I’ve never attempted to influence my parents to quit being Catholics).

I did not chose another Christian faith at that point in my life. When I did start a serious pursuit of spiritual seeking, I did not merely look for a group or organization that matched an already formed way of thinking (regarding the Divine) I may have had. Nor did I “let others drive me out” because of a lack of ability to stand strong - as I said, I never did have a genuine faith in Catholicism. I was not personally involved, nor do I know anyone personally involved in the pedophile scandal. All those are fair conjectures on your part - they just don’t happen to fit my case. However, at one point in my life I had leaned towards voicing a rigid standard of spiritual integrity when my personal life did not manifest that same standard. Having (hopefully) learned my lesson in that regard, I am guilty of having no patience with those who haven’t.

I am not condemning all Catholics for the sins of a few. But I am condemning those that try to hide or minimize the sins of “the few” and protect them, for the crime of hypocrisy.

I have had some spiritual experiences that did raise my awareness - just not connected to the Catholic Church.

Just so I don’t misunderstand again as you said, are you saying you never adequately learned your original faith? You never believed in it and abandoned it when you became 18 yoa because of some immature adolescent judgment supported only by your youthful inability to learn faith and to believe? Be truthful, what is it that turned you away before you ever learned what the faith is? Do you think like most teenagers it might have been too difficult or incovenient to follow all those rules at such a young age? And why are you seemingly so desperate to hold the pedophile issue as though just broadcast in the news for the first time today when it has all been exposed and being delt with? these are honest questions that are justified considering your damnation of the Catholic Church of which does consist of the faithful within the Church.

 

[twb1621]

Most of my questions have been asked by others. Catholic Answers has some great information on the inquisitions if anyone is interested.

catholic.com/library/Inquisition.asp

My only question follows.

On one hand Catholics are being told to be aggressive to stamp out the evil within, but with the opposite hand Catholics are told they are wrong to aggressively support excommunication of people/politicians which support evil.

So which should it be?

actually, it is the old adage, no matter which approach you choose you will be condemned for it by one group or another.

 

[anon5216]

I did not ignore or try to minimize the misdeeds of a few. But you most certainly are condemning the Church, the one founded by CHrist, on ath whole based on ttese crimes. For whatever reasons you chose to leave the One True Church. Fine. That was your decision. I cannot accept your decree that the Catholic Church is cancer-ridden. In doing so you have placed yourself in the same camp as Catholic-hating radicals. Some that hold these views can be excused, as many act out of ignorance, not knowing the fullness of Truth in the Catholic Church. But being raised Catholic, you have know excuse. You KNOW what the CHurch teaches. You KNOW the good that the Church does. Yet you disregard this for the wrongs committed by a microspic few. I’m guessing that is what you have to do to justify to yourself abondoning the Church.

To have been instructed in what the Church teaches hardly binds a person to believe it. And belief itself hardly means anything other than that your behavior can be predicted based on your beliefs - and if your behavior can be predicted, it can be manipulated. But that’s digressing. I do not have to point to senior Church leaders covering up for the wrongs committed by lower level representatives to justify my leaving the Church.

The Church has created a gigantic monstrosity of a theology that they can’t back up at the root. The various writings collected together that we call The Bible, simply can’t be proven as the undistorted dictation of God! They amount to recollections and interpretations by various individuals of sometimes very extraordinary experiences. These cannot be considered any more accurate than a group of contemporary people reporting as eyewitnesses to a current event. The more extraordinary the event, the more diverse the descriptions get and the less factually reliable they get. At best, these writings could honestly reflect the writer’s response and interpretation of an event - that doesn’t mean the writer’s response and interpretation was objectively accurate. You just can’t build the endless chain of “if this, then that” theological mumbo jumbo and magical incantations the Church has built up from such source material.

Does the Church do some good - sure. Non-Catholic and non-Christian groups also do good. If doing a bit of good is proof, then there are a lot of Divinely sanctioned groups out there and they definitely don’t agree on their definitions of who or what God is.

 

[anon5216]

I see, but you are not harbering any ill feelings right? Correct

Just so I don’t misunderstand again as you said, are you saying you never adequately learned your original faith? No, I’m saying I didn’t believe the Catholic faith. You never believed in it and abandoned it when you became 18 yoa because of some immature adolescent judgment supported only by your youthful inability to learn faith and to believe? No, the question itself is actually somewhat spiritually immature. You don’t “learn” spirituality by memorizing a set of beliefs and then magically agreeing with them. Be truthful, what is it that turned you away before you ever learned what the faith is? See previous sentence. Do you think like most teenagers it might have been too difficult or incovenient to follow all those rules at such a young age? Again, a very spiritually naive question. Following rules is not spirituality. I agree that an uncompromising self-discipline is a great asset (if not absolute requirement) in following a spiritual path, and that following some pre-defined structure is likely helpful in the beginning, but again, following rules is not spirituality. And why are you seemingly so desperate to hold the pedophile issue as though just broadcast in the news for the first time today when it has all been exposed and being delt with? As far as the 2,000 year history of the Catholic Church is concerned, this is happening “now”. It is obvious and undeniable and therefore an appropriate example. It took $2 billion in victim payoffs before the Pope apologized. I’m not convinced there has been a core change in the leadership attitudes that allowed that scandal to happen. these are honest questions that are justified considering your damnation of the Catholic Church of which does consist of the faithful within the Church. If you take the “all for one and one for all” “my country/religion/gang right or wrong” approach, then Catholicism is doomed. Hold your leaders accountable when they are corrupt. Support what is spiritually good. Take personal responsibility for your assessments of those situations. And for God’s sake, get past the immature idea of spirituality being a set of beliefs, rules and unquestioning loyalty.

 

[anon5216]

I hope that the “Anonymous” Catholic basher who is posting here will search his/her past and find out what it was that the Church did to make him/her so HURT and ANGRY.
Most people in this situation can figure it out, from a psychological viewpoint, and then let it go.
Please, let it go.
If it was a priest who said something, or your parents, or some other Catholic who hurt you, forgive them and then come home.
I will definitely be praying for you.
There is a reason you logged on to Catholic Answers. You must be searching for something.
God bless you.

It’s not a question of needing to forgive some particular Catholic’s actual or perceived transgression against me. And spiritual “home” is not the Catholic Church.

As to searching, I can say that a fully conscious awareness as my immortal soul is certainly a first goal. By awareness, I’m not referring to mere belief - whether created by my imagination or some Catholic theologian or any other source.

If you wish to pray that I reach that awareness, I whole heartedly accept that prayer and will, in kind, offer the identical prayer for you. Do not, however, pray for my acceptance of Catholicism - even if you sincerely believe that’s the only way to achieve conscious awareness of one’s immortal soul. My prayer for you will also not involve any imagining of how the result should come about. To be clear, that includes not praying for you to leave the Church.

God bless you in His own way, far beyond anything the all too fallible Catholic Church hierarchy can ever dream up.

 

[CWBetts]

It’s not a question of needing to forgive some particular Catholic’s actual or perceived transgression against me. And spiritual “home” is not the Catholic Church.

As to searching, I can say that a fully conscious awareness as my immortal soul is certainly a first goal. By awareness, I’m not referring to mere belief - whether created by my imagination or some Catholic theologian or any other source.

If you wish to pray that I reach that awareness, I whole heartedly accept that prayer and will, in kind, offer the identical prayer for you. Do not, however, pray for my acceptance of Catholicism - even if you sincerely believe that’s the only way to achieve conscious awareness of one’s immortal soul. My prayer for you will also not involve any imagining of how the result should come about. To be clear, that includes not praying for you to leave the Church.

God bless you in His own way, far beyond anything the all too fallible Catholic Church hierarchy can ever dream up.

The Church is infallible. This is not to say the individuals are without error, but that the Hly spirit preventsts false teachings from coming out of the Church

 

[twb1621]

To have been instructed in what the Church teaches hardly binds a person to believe it…

This brings it forth in a nutshell. The fact is, it was offered to you as the Bible says, but you refused to continue to learn and grow with it until you could more maturely learn from it. You have the idea that at the age of 18 (or there abouts) you were taught all there was about the Catholic Church’s teachings and comprehended it all. Your wrong. I know, I was the same way at that age with the same indignant cockiness and “know all about it” attitude. I lived with it for 25 years before seeking the truth of it all. And your statement here is the same as saying what Jesus taught and what the apostles carried on under His direction and the guidance of the Holy Spirit you don’t have to believe. you’re right. You don’t have to believe if that is what you choose, that is the freedom of will God gave us. But there are only two choices, believing and having faith for the salvation of the soul or refusing and everyone knows what that choice leads to. You don’t have to believe, but that doesn’t change a thing, you will still stand before Him one day and hopefully you will realize before then the error of your choice and seek and learn the truth.You don’t have to like the corruption that has occurred over the centuries within the church, and to think any
Catholic likes it or wouldn’t strive to get it corrected is ridiculous because we all put our hearts into the Bride of Christ. But in knowing the word of God and understanding it, we realize it can happen. The difference between the CC having individuals who sin within her and other denominations is the media and other denominations thrive on beating down the CC to use it to drive up media viewers to their news or in the case of other “Christian faiths” to “prove their point"that they are the 'right” faith. When the corruption hits other denominations people just don’t find it as interesting because they are independent ministries for the most part. But you believe you knew and understood it all at 18yoa.

 

[udoc89]

From personal experience, I have found that “Catholic Bashing” on the part of those who are ignorant of the Faith is just that–ignorance of the Faith.

From those who are educated and ought to know better, I believe it is based on fear. My brother is a perfect example. He is getting too close to the Truth, and it frightens him. He must keep screaming about what is wrong with the Church, because if he looks too closely, he has no choice but to accept what is right in front of him. I am hopeful.

 

[twb1621]

**anon5216;4481201 **No , I’m saying I didn’t believe the Catholic faith"

Based on what, all you learned and all you realized at that age"

TWB - 'You never believed in it and abandoned it when you became 18 yoa because of some immature adolescent judgment supported only by your youthful inability to learn faith and to believe?" Anon -“No, the question itself is actually somewhat spiritually immature. You don’t “learn” spirituality by memorizing a set of beliefs and then magically agreeing with them.”

My point exactly. As you mature **you **are responsibile to continue the study and gain understanding of Jesus which leads to recognition of His teachings and faith. That is how you begin to recognize Him and understand His teachings, His sacrifices and His love and appriciate all He gave us. Perhaps if you understood faith is believing in that which you may not understand or which you can not prove you would better understand what spirituality actually is and why the question was not spiritually immature. Proof voids faith.

TWB - “Be truthful, what is it that turned you away before you ever learned what the faith is?” Anon - “See previous sentence.” TWB - “Do you think like most teenagers it might have been too difficult or incovenient to follow all those rules at such a young age?” Anon - “Again, a very spiritually naive question. Following rules is not spirituality. I agree that an uncompromising self-discipline is a great asset (if not absolute requirement) in following a spiritual path, and that following some pre-defined structure is likely helpful in the beginning, but again, following rules is not spirituality.”

As you said, you must grow in spirituality. How do you think you do that? As far as rules are concerned when it comes to Faith, Faith has values to guide us established by God. Those values are our part of the covenant God made with us. When you diminish them to “rules” you are blind to faith. its your choice to follow them or not, Life has rules and laws.

TWB - “And why are you seemingly so desperate to hold the pedophile issue as though just broadcast in the news for the first time today when it has all been exposed and being delt with?” Anon - “As far as the 2,000 year history of the Catholic Church is concerned, this is happening “now”. It is obvious and undeniable and therefore an appropriate example. It took $2 billion in victim payoffs before the Pope apologized. I’m not convinced there has been a core change in the leadership attitudes that allowed that scandal to happen.”
So who are you to appoint yourself as the one to judge when it is suitably corrected?

TWB _ “these are honest questions that are justified considering your damnation of the Catholic Church of which does consist of the faithful within the Church.” Anon - "If you take the “all for one and one for all” “my country/religion/gang right or wrong” approach, then Catholicism is doomed. Hold your leaders accountable when they are corrupt. As you did? Support what is spiritually good. Take personal responsibility for your assessments of those situations. And for God’s sake, get past the immature idea of spirituality being a set of beliefs, rules and unquestioning loyalty. You have no idea what “the body of Christ” is, do you? Nor do you understand what it’s responsibility entails.

 

[po18guy]

The evil one does not launch concerted and perpetual attacks against false churches. Those fall into dosorder due to the incongruity of their own heretical teachngs. Heresy pleases the evil one, so he allows it to do his work for him.

Rather, he always attacks the truth,since he is the opposite of truth. Those who attack Catholicism are not demons, but are influenced by them and are doing their work. To believe that one of the 30,000 fallen away churches is the true church is a matter of pure ego, and that will dissolve of its own weight.

The evil one does not attack falseness, since that would be to attack himself, and a house divided cannot stand. No, he targets the truth for his vile assaults. That leads to only one destination.

 

[twb1621]

The evil one does not launch concerted and perpetual attacks against false churches. Those fall into dosorder due to the incongruity of their own heretical teachngs. Heresy pleases the evil one, so he allows it to do his work for him.

Rather, he always attacks the truth,since he is the opposite of truth. Those who attack Catholicism are not demons, but are influenced by them and are doing their work. To believe that one of the 30,000 fallen away churches is the true church is a matter of pure ego, and that will dissolve of its own weight.

The evil one does not attack falseness, since that would be to attack himself, and a house divided cannot stand. No, he targets the truth for his vile assaults. That leads to only one destination.

Well spoken… and so correct.

 

[anon5216]

The Church is infallible. This is not to say the individuals are without error, but that the Hly spirit preventsts false teachings from coming out of the Church

Infallibility of the Pope/Church is a myth propagated by the Church hierarchy.
It can never be proven for the reasons I gave earlier that the biblical writings can never be proven the undistorted dictation of God. Believing the Church in this matter doesn’t make it true.

 

[po18guy]

Infallibility of the Pope/Church is a myth propagated by the Church hierarchy.
It can never be proven for the reasons I gave earlier that the biblical writings can never be proven the undistorted dictation of God. Believing the Church in this matter doesn’t make it true.

It’s far easier to prove the Church’s infallibility than it is to prove God’s existence.

 

[twb1621]

Infallibility of the Pope/Church is a myth propagated by the Church hierarchy.
It can never be proven for the reasons I gave earlier that the biblical writings can never be proven the undistorted dictation of God. Believing the Church in this matter doesn’t make it true.

So you don’t believe in the Bible at all? Are you atheist? if not, how can you believe in God without believing His word? How do you pick and choose what to believe that you can’t prove with your senses? How do you put faith or trust in anything or anyone without your proof?

 

[anon5216]

It’s far easier to prove the Church’s infallibility than it is to prove God’s existence.

Well, prove it.

Don’t forget, if you attempt to use biblical quotes for this “proof”, you have to first prove that the quote itself is the undistorted dictation of God - not just some fallible human’s interpretation/response to some experience of theirs.

To my knowledge, no one has ever proven that the Bible is the undistorted “Word of God”.

Everyone just starts with that as an assumption of faith.
You do remember the old joke about “assume”, don’t you?

 

[po18guy]

Well, prove it.

Don’t forget, if you attempt to use biblical quotes for this “proof”, you have to first prove that the quote itself is the undistorted dictation of God - not just some fallible human’s interpretation/response to some experience of theirs.

To my knowledge, no one has ever proven that the Bible is the undistorted “Word of God”.

Everyone just starts with that as an assumption of faith.
You do remember the old joke about “assume”, don’t you?

Why so bitter? Have you lost all faith? If so, why? This is the real question you are posing.

One example of the Church’s infallible authority: The Church’s teaching on morals i.e. contraception. All Christian churches taught against it until about 1930. Then, many suddenly said that it was OK. Why then, and why so many? Prophets of the day said it would only lead to abortion and they were pounded for their assertions. Well, in 1973, legal abortion came. Well, that’s all the further it will go, they said. Except for some who protested that it would lead to euthanasia. They were also pounded in public opinion. Well, euthanasia is here. Next, it will lead to cloning. It’s also here. Human-animal hybrids? They are trying. We are opening doors that should never have been opened, to the evil one’s delight.

The Catholic Church has maintained a rock-solid teaching against any and all of this. Everyone else has caved, and look at the mess this world is in. We all need a rock of stability in order to make sense of this world, and that is what you are lacking at this point in your life. I’m praying for you.

Christ’s peace.