Why is Catholic Bashing soooo popular?

[twb1621]

I don’t think he IS proselytizing people away from the Catholic Church. On the contrary- he is encouraging those who feel so called to join the Church, while remaining firm in his assertions that it isn’t right for him. It’s our duty to respect his decisions for his own life.

no you are right, he is not. He has just been stating his thoughts and feelings about Christianity based on his exposure (or lack of exposure) to it. He needs to see and touch the wounds to believe and that’s a hard place to be in.

God’s grace and guidence to us all.:imsorry:

 

[anon5216]

Has anyone ever proven that the Bible is the distorted Word of God?
That is an absurd question suitable only for an uneducated high school debate. If someone or some organization is going to make a claim of Divine Revelation, it is up to them to satisfactorily prove it - not for others to disprove. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Deal with it.

The Bible isn’t a dictation from God to man. I don’t know where you got that impression.
Obviously, since I never made that claim, you must mean “Where did I get the impression that Catholics in particular or Christians in general make that claim?”. Fair enough.

I get that impression from the way chapter and verse are quoted and from the way theologies are built up. These interpretations and extrapolations require that biblical writings are unerringly, 100% accurately, the “Word of God”.

It is the guided revelation of God through man. Man is his creation, and he uses man to reveal himself to mankind. Inspiration comes from God, the Bible is a compilation of such inspired revelations but it is not dictated.
Now “inspired revelations that aren’t dictated” is another story entirely. That necessarily admits to the coloration of the inspiration by the consciousness of the recipient of the inspiration. i.e. error is introduced by the imperfect human recipient. At this point you cannot extrapolate precise, indisputable arguments or theologies. The “coloration” will just keep magnifying the errors the further the extrapolated theology develops.

Let’s be clear here: The Catholic Church is the One True Church of Jesus Christ. You don’t believe that.
Let’s be honestly clear here: “You, (and many others), believe the Catholic Church is the One True Church of Jesus Christ.” And yes, I don’t.

You have your reasons and your explanations for that disbelief and you’ve shared them, but you haven’t addressed the original question.

Do you think Catholics bashing is popular?
True, I got into this discussion via responding to specific posts and have not directly addressed the original question.

I believe the issue is quite complex from several angles.
To start I’ll quote a definition of bashing that I believe is appropriate here: “The pejorative bashing implies excessive or unwarranted criticism on a subject, group or individual.”

Several people have posted their views on the matter already, and even though they sometimes stated their disagreements with each other, I believe real world specific examples could be found for every scenario mentioned so far. While in each category given by others there will be examples of shallow people who fully fit the bashing definition above, I believe there are many more whose actions/words can’t be considered unwarranted or even excessive. Some of the previous posters have given scenarios where that would be the case.

Another thing to consider (seeing as how the vast majority of Catholics are still imperfectly human) is "Are non-Catholics sometimes unintentionally or even intentionally holding up a “mirror”? Would there be any reason for a non-Catholic or even non-Christian person to be offended or feel “excessively or unwarrantedly criticized” by a group of people claiming to have the “only” path to God telling them to join or go to hell? Also, refuse to prove their claims other than to quote senior members of their group interpreting a document simply assumed to be the “Word of God”? Or how about those Catholics whose lives don’t remotely express true spiritual development publicly making a***s of themselves in the name of the Church? (Believe me, I am in no way putting any of you on this forum in that last category. But I’m sure all of you have met or been aware of someone who is in that category). Also, there is the category of those who, with reason, sincerely disagree and won’t back down.

So warranted vs. unwarranted. I think several posters have given good perspectives on that - at least with rereading their posts with an eye to that issue.

Regarding excessive. When two things are in opposition, excessive is a relative term. If someone bumps into you accidentally and you knock them down and curse them - that would certainly be excessive. If someone threatens your life credibly with a gun and you kill them first in self-defense, I wouldn’t call that excessive.

So, where does that put us in theological or philosophical oppositions or discussions?
Humor me for a moment and temporarily set aside you beliefs in Church doctrine. How do claims of the nature and identity of God and the process of the path to God rate on the intensity scale? (OK, grab your beliefs back, that’s long enough. )

Are you trying to offer a justifiable explanation for why Catholics are bashed? If so, I’m not able to connect the dots so far.
For the real cases of shallow people simply attacking for no good reason, there is no justifiable excuse - not on either side of the table.

Then there’s the whole gradient of more or less excessive or unwarranted criticism. That, I believe, would be the responsibility of whichever party in the dispute happened to be more spiritually mature to guide the discussion to a more mutually useful spiritual direction. And since non other than God can make that judgement accurately, both sides should accept responsibility - but without assuming they are the more spiritually qualified.

I pray that everyone on this planet grows in Truth. Not anyone’s written, oral, or imagined idea of Truth, but just Truth - with no preconceptions of how God might make that happen in each individual case.

 

[Cinette]

1. Cuz it’s EASY. As a former Catholic basher, I can say with all conviction that Catholics are EASY targets. I can say, really, whatever degrading awful things I want to say to you (and I HAVE said them) and you can’t say boo back to me because then you aren’t being ‘christ-like’. See how easy? It’s like kicking a puppy.
2. It’s fun. I’ll be having a conversation with some ill-informed catholic and I can run circles around them philosophically. It’s not that I’m smarter than them, that’s not it at all, they just don’t know their faith. it’s like kicking a dumb puppy.
3. Nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd. If everyone is bashing catholics, surely I can, too.
4. (And this is one that Catholics need to take a good listen to) They’re weak. They shouldn’t be, mind you. They’ve got truth on their side, and in the end, what else matters besides that, right, but Catholics have NO IDEA what they’ve got, and they WASTE it, absolutely waste it. They lack conviction. They lack a SPINE. They lack unity. A house divided and all…

With all that said, there is something oddly peaceful about some Catholic woman quietly praying her rosary while angry people shout obscenities at her (saw this at an abortion clinic). This storm of people circling around her, and she was in the quiet eye of it all. It’s an image I like very much.

:kiss4you: :kiss4you: :kiss4you: :yyeess: :yyeess: A lot of truth here. LOL

 

[Cinette]

Why kind of bashing is going on? examples?

:extrahappy: :bounce: :banghead: :bigyikes:

 

[anon5216]

btw

Erin and Tom,
Thanks for your comments about me not proselytizing people away from the Catholic Church.
Just because my spiritual path is elsewhere, doesn’t mean I consider Catholicism an invalid path for others.

I did, however, think of an analogy (or “parable” if using that word is not blasphemy ) that may or may not prove useful to you and others:

I’ll start with the “path” image.
From my perspective, I see many Catholics (and other Christians and non-Christians for that matter) as setting foot on their particular chosen spiritual “path”, taking a couple of steps, and then turning around to shout at the top of their lungs: “I found it. It’s the only real and valid ‘path’ and all of you out there need to join me.”

I imagine such a traffic jam at these entry points, that new people can’t properly find the entrance to the actual path, let alone walk along it to any significant extent - not to mention those shouting not getting anywhere themselves.

My exhortation to you Roman Catholics is to make it your business walking your path without halting or ever assuming you’ve reached the end goal. As long as you are physically in this world and interacting with other people in any way, your walking and your path will not be invisible. There is no need to stop and shout it out - that just clogs up the traffic.

The more of you walking your path with your focus on where you’re going instead of who’s behind you or who’s going in another direction, the more you establish a flow or current like in a river, and the more people will be drawn into this flow.

I will, however, give this same advice to anyone looking at any spiritual path - with the caveat that the choice of spiritual path is their own personal responsibility.

 

[twb1621]

btw

Erin and Tom,
Thanks for your comments about me not proselytizing people away from the Catholic Church.
Just because my spiritual path is elsewhere, doesn’t mean I consider Catholicism an invalid path for others.

I did, however, think of an analogy (or “parable” if using that word is not blasphemy ) that may or may not prove useful to you and others:

I’ll start with the “path” image.
From my perspective, I see many Catholics (and other Christians and non-Christians for that matter) as setting foot on their particular chosen spiritual “path”, taking a couple of steps, and then turning around to shout at the top of their lungs: “I found it. It’s the only real and valid ‘path’ and all of you out there need to join me.”

I imagine such a traffic jam at these entry points, that new people can’t properly find the entrance to the actual path, let alone walk along it to any significant extent - not to mention those shouting not getting anywhere themselves.

My exhortation to you Roman Catholics is to make it your business walking your path without halting or ever assuming you’ve reached the end goal. As long as you are physically in this world and interacting with other people in any way, your walking and your path will not be invisible. There is no need to stop and shout it out - that just clogs up the traffic.

The more of you walking your path with your focus on where you’re going instead of who’s behind you or who’s going in another direction, the more you establish a flow or current like in a river, and the more people will be drawn into this flow.

I will, however, give this same advice to anyone looking at any spiritual path - with the caveat that the choice of spiritual path is their own personal responsibility.

 

[twb1621]

btw

Erin and Tom,
Thanks for your comments about me not proselytizing people away from the Catholic Church.
Just because my spiritual path is elsewhere, doesn’t mean I consider Catholicism an invalid path for others.

I did, however, think of an analogy (or “parable” if using that word is not blasphemy ) that may or may not prove useful to you and others:

I’ll start with the “path” image.
From my perspective, I see many Catholics (and other Christians and non-Christians for that matter) as setting foot on their particular chosen spiritual “path”, taking a couple of steps, and then turning around to shout at the top of their lungs: “I found it. It’s the only real and valid ‘path’ and all of you out there need to join me.”

I imagine such a traffic jam at these entry points, that new people can’t properly find the entrance to the actual path, let alone walk along it to any significant extent - not to mention those shouting not getting anywhere themselves.

My exhortation to you Roman Catholics is to make it your business walking your path without halting or ever assuming you’ve reached the end goal. As long as you are physically in this world and interacting with other people in any way, your walking and your path will not be invisible. There is no need to stop and shout it out - that just clogs up the traffic.

The more of you walking your path with your focus on where you’re going instead of who’s behind you or who’s going in another direction, the more you establish a flow or current like in a river, and the more people will be drawn into this flow.

I will, however, give this same advice to anyone looking at any spiritual path - with the caveat that the choice of spiritual path is their own personal responsibility.

Catholics believe and it is a teaching of the Church that no one has obtained salvation until their judgment has come and Jesus welcomes them saying well done, enter my Father’s house. As long as we are in this earthly life until it is done we have no guarantee against failure or of salvation. The Church also teaches that it is by the example we present in our daily living of humility and charity in Jesus that we express the way of our Savior. And yes, the way to the end goal, salvation is each individual person’s responsibility to seek and learn and live in Christ. These are the teachings of the Church and I agree with them 100%. I believe you just expressed the same belief by what you wrote.
Yes, there are some who have turned their life over and devoted themselves to God for His service which is a beautiful way to live, but this should not be construed as a proclamation that they believe they have reached salvation. In reading the lives of saints, Mother Teresa of Calcutta for instance, you will learn the life we are suppose to emulate and yet she had her times of doubt and weakness just as anyone else. Although she lived a saintly life she never believed herself to be a saint.
Of course there are some who are a bit zealous and can come off pushy, that’s not the way we are taught but it is mostly meant with good intentions. There are others who come along with the tough love approach. For some this is helpful but for others it can work in the reverse so one does need to know when they may become over baring or offensive. These things are in any Christian denomination and it is due to the devotions felt by different people. Just as there are many different personalities there is a place for individual expressiveness in Faith. A non-Catholic must understand when coming into a forum such as this they are coming into a place where it is expected to be offered the Catholic faith and views that is what this is. So you would receive a more stead fast response toward Catholicism because most come here with a desire to know what it’s all about, how is it perhaps different from the way they were taught or to air misconceptions about Catholicism they were taught or developed. In short, what you expressed in your example is actually what is taught in regard to seeking our path. From what I have seen, non-Catholics who have searched for the “right” path with true desire of devotion to God more often than not are led to the CC. But we also have those who just drift along claiming Catholicism as their faith but living a pagan life, unfortunately. In this forum, we all help each other to help others in many ways.
You do at times come off in a way that can be considered insulting which is why some here (just as I was) are defensive. Its not uncommon to be attached here.

 

[Cinette]

While the causes for “bashing” presented so far are accurate in specific cases, there a couple perspectives not being touched on.

The Catholic Church, in practice, is a “Do as I say, not as I do” authoritarian structure. This in itself already attracts a certain amount of “bashing”, regardless of whether the person or organization is religious or secular, etc…

Now, if you voluntarily join such an organization and are OK with that style, then that would be your free will choice. Personally, I will not follow leaders who can’t walk the talk, (or worse yet, redefine the talk to match their crooked walk).

A much more serious reason, is that the Catholic Church has the agenda of imposing their rules/understanding/interpretation on everyone else.

If you are honest, you have to admit that basically amounts to an attack. You can justify it by claiming it’s in the best spiritual interests of the non-Catholic or that, (as far as Catholics believe anyway), the Church is spreading Truth. However, from the non-Catholic perspective, the Church is just a human institution aggressively pushing their agenda. Objectively looking at the disparity between talk and walk, it should be clear that the Church simply has no leg to stand on when it comes to proving their position to non-members.

Note that I’m not denying members the right to believe the Church’s positions - just pointing out that the Church trying to impose these positions on non members rightfully would be perceived as hostile aggression by those non members. Those that push back against this aggression may seem to a member to be “Catholic bashing” when in fact they are not.

I find your post most offensive and untrue. You are free not to be part of the Catholic Church - nobody has been around trying to force you to join I am sure.

So keep away from us but do not lie and offend. Go away!

 

[Cinette]

To be frank, no one should be using generalizations, period.

Regarding those who bash the church, we cannot pretend to know every person’s psyche, and to assume we know their reasons for doing so is wrong. The best way to anger someone bashing the church, and in turn to turn them away from the church, is to tell them “you’re only doing this because you know we’re right.” Anyone can use that excuse for any argument, so stop using it, period. You cannot know a person’s past, their experiences, their knowledge, their understanding, and especially, their soul. Stop trying, EVERYone.

Regarding those who have left the Church, it’s just as wrong to assume they left because they thought it was too hard. I have no doubt that some people who have left the Church did so because they couldn’t find the answers they were looking for. There were things left unexplained, issues they had with theology or doctrine. Maybe their priest was a bad priest, who taught them incorrectly- I know many cradle Catholics who couldn’t stand up for their faith when they needed to, because they were honestly ignorant of Church teaching and reasoning. It’s not enough to teach that “the Church says this.” If we want to educate our children and our converts, and if we want to prepare them to defend themselves against the attacks that will inevitably come, we need to tell them, “here’s what the Church teaches. here’s why. Here are some common objections, and here’s the Church’s answer to them. Any questions?”

Resorting to name calling, resorting to calling someone a “wannabe” because they disagree with the Church, is wrong, period. That’s acting out of hate. If we want to show those who hate the Church what the Church is really about, we need to act out of love, in every way we can.

Anon, I will pray that you turn to the Catholic Church. To not do so would be a grave violation of what Christ commanded me to do. Pray for me in any way you want. You can pray that I’ll stop my conversion and leave the Church forever, if you want. You see, I’m not insecure about this. I don’t think you praying for me to leave the Church will have the intended effect. If you’re secure in what you believe, then you shouldn’t be worried, either. My conversations with God are between He and I, and we will talk together about the things most important to Him, regarding my life and the lives of those with whom I interact. Our Lady of Fatima specifically told us to pray for the conversion of sinners. I take this to mean the conversion of non-Christians and the return of all Christians to the Catholic Church. And if my Lady so commands me, I will obey. I hope you can respect that I will do this.

God bless you all, and remember: think in love, listen in love, speak in love, and act in love, all the time.

Your comment is so refreshing and balanced and charitable.

I am a revert and I am learing more about the Church each day. Catholic bashers like Anon hurt me deeply. I feel so sad and angry. Then I come across your posting and I feel so good. Thank you.

Cinette

 

[RobinSebas]

When they crucified the Shepard why should they spare the sheep and the sheep fold.

 

[narrowpath]

Anyone who has read more than a dozen post on ***CA Forum ***is aware of the intensity of “Catholic Bashing.”

Why do you think this is?

God bless,
PJM m.c.

Because there aren’t any other groups left to bash

 

[CWBetts]

Because there aren’t any other groups left to bash

Ain’t that the truth!! Try basing anyone else and you get accused of hate crimes!!

 

[coolduude]

Ain’t that the truth!! Try basing anyone else and you get accused of hate crimes!!

True, but sad. So sad.

At least it can be contained on this site. We all saw what happened with avenger.

 

[po18guy]

When they crucified the Shepard why should they spare the sheep and the sheep fold.

Very true! No disciple is greater than his Master.

John 15:20 “Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.”

Since Christ had His cross, we all have ours, if we are true disciples.

 

[CWBetts]

True, but sad. So sad.

At least it can be contained on this site. We all saw what happened with avenger.

Can we not bring him up anymore? He’s gone. If we keep dwelling on him it will ba a victory for him.

 

[Cinette]

Ain’t that the truth!! Try basing anyone else and you get accused of hate crimes!!

I think that maybe because the evil one believes in God, he also knows which is the Church God founded. So he aims for the BULL’S EYE!!!

 

[Katrina5]

Ok, with due respect, I’ll share this with you to help you understand some things as well. let me tell you a bit about learning faith and the error in judging those as having blind faith. There is such a thing as being blind to faith as well.
It’s not always about blind Faith. Example; I was raised Catholic and attended all Catholic Schools but once I became an “adult” I drifted off in my own direction. At age 21 I went into law enforcement and worked in many specialized units of municipal and later federal agencies receiving appropriate training in each based on specialty which allowed for a very diversified background in training and life experiences. I was a highly respected professional investigator and agent. Later in my career I received pension and went private. I appeared at times as a guest investigative commentator for Fox network’s court TV in their NY facility. I trained investigators and many other professionals in specialized areas of interest through my own agency. But since reaching the legal age of all knowing enlightenment at 18 and onward I also developed my own “religious beliefs” based on my opinions in opposition to certain Catholic teachings and those I adopted based on my own conclusions, primary that popular philosophy that “…all that mattered to God was what was in your heart and you do the best you can, that it makes no difference what faith you belong to…”. I had authority and controlled many things, my ego proved it. that kind of thing. I was separated from the Catholic Church for over 25 years.

After several life events took place that led me to question not having God in my life but still having opinions adverse to the Catholic Church, I started looking at other Christian denominations and non-denominational forms of worship. What a hodgepodge of Bible versions and interpretations I found. I believed in Christ but that was as far as it went at that point and a Catholic priest told me I was “too analytical” and it was interfering with my faith. I was sure I was analytical which is one of the qualities that made me so successful in my profession, it was necessary to perform an accurate investigation, but I didn’t accept being “Too Analytical”. What I had to make sure of for myself is that if I was going to be involved in worship, I had to believe it to be the True Church, so I stepped back and researched Christianity with the tools of my profession both from recent days to its origin, then from it’s origin to today. I researched every point that came up in any form of question and that led directly to the Catholic Church which led me to use the Bible of the Catholic Church along with many other resources. I also realized how much my adoption of my own beliefs when I was younger was no different than those who founded other Christian faiths, which explained in part why there are so many. In studying scripture I began with the New Testament and went backward to the Old Testament. In doing it that way I was able to better put together the links in the prophecies of the coming of the messiah to the Life of Jesus. To simplify my direction to you, I analytically performed my own investigation over more than five years and without doubt proved to myself the Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ and that there are more than enough assertions by Christ himself to solidify that if you are to believe in Jesus, you have to believe in His Word and His word is a covenant that part of which asserted His Church would never fail even with the prophesized heresies and corruption that would infest her at times. That those who persevered in her would be saved by His word. In all this study and research I became ashamed of myself over those issues I disagreed with in the teachings of the Catholic Faith for so many years. I realized those teachings where instructed by Jesus to the apostles and carried on through the Sacred Tradition and Scripture. I also realized the biggest problem that causes some Catholics to be distant or weak in the practice of their faith is unintentional ignorance by way of a lack of study and knowledge in the Word of God. Some Catholics seem to think if they go through catholic school or CCD that once finished, they know what they are suppose to know, maybe all there is to know. They fail to realize it is ever person’s responsibility to seek knowledge of God independantly, which in turn will lead to love, and devotion to Him. I continue to study and learn and can’t get enough knowledge of Him to get as close to Him as I wish to be. That is how much I have learned to love Him and devote myself to Him. I only regret all the years I lost not learning sooner.

I wouldn’t regret any time “lost” while you are searching for the truth. We all have a Faith Journey! All the things you read and examined while searching led you back to the Truth!
IT MADE YOU STRONGER. Don’t dismiss that.
I just have to say, again, and I’m not directing this to you, but the hostile tone that some posters are using turns people off.
Why would someone look at Catholic Answers if they weren’t searching? Then we bash that person and make things worse.
Please let’s be gentle with one another.
Anon seems to see the Church as a huge, powerful, corrupt, even evil institution.

I personally feel that Insurance companies are huge, powerful, corrupt, evil and greedy Institutions. But we have to play by their rules! I can’t drive, own a home, go to the doctor, or die without an Insurance company being involved.

I think we do need to get away from bashing each other.  It only makes us more divided.

Let’s love one another as Christ loves us.
And pray for peace in our journeys to God.

 

[Nino]

Gee,your comments or ‘puppy’ and ‘ill-informed’ etc…makes me think your still a catholic basher. Your comments that so many dont know their faith is a ‘bash’. Jesus warned that it is easier for a camel to squeeze thru an eye of a needle then for a rich man to make it to heaven meant that many wealthy inidivuals hate we just plain common folks (who dont know why we’re Catholics …just puppies)…and since Jesus said this is not my kingdom…that means dont max out those credit cards,dont buy those expensive trinkets,instead realize this earth is just a temp.stopover…with a few bucks left over help your neighbor etc…and so the RCC has,for over 2,000 years. Clever flicks like Miracle on 34th street just compound that secular agenda…as the clerk looked and smiled the day after Christmas…at the bare store shelves.he smirked.'what a friend we have in Jesus" what a friend indeed…

 

[Cinette]

I wouldn’t regret any time “lost” while you are searching for the truth. We all have a Faith Journey! All the things you read and examined while searching led you back to the Truth!
IT MADE YOU STRONGER. Don’t dismiss that.
I just have to say, again, and I’m not directing this to you, but the hostile tone that some posters are using turns people off.
Why would someone look at Catholic Answers if they weren’t searching? Then we bash that person and make things worse.
Please let’s be gentle with one another.
Anon seems to see the Church as a huge, powerful, corrupt, even evil institution.

I personally feel that Insurance companies are huge, powerful, corrupt, evil and greedy Institutions. But we have to play by their rules! I can’t drive, own a home, go to the doctor, or die without an Insurance company being involved.

I think we do need to get away from bashing each other.  It only makes us more divided.

Let’s love one another as Christ loves us.
And pray for peace in our journeys to God.

Yes you are right - it is true that we must be more gentle and love one another. We must constantly remind ourselves. It is just when we get bashed we now begin to get a little bolder and bash back a little.

I believe that a debate must advance. They ask a question you make a point they counter that point and then, after research you find more scriptural proof, etc… I hate it when you prove something without doubt and they come back with a really nasty twisting remark…but you are right we must reflect on this.

 

[Cinette]

I wouldn’t regret any time “lost” while you are searching for the truth. We all have a Faith Journey! All the things you read and examined while searching led you back to the Truth!

Hi Katrina!

I have a quotation for you which applies:

*" Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand."
*

• St Augustine

My experience is similar to yours in many ways.

Welcome home!