Why is Catholic Bashing soooo popular?

[anon5216]

Why so bitter? Have you lost all faith? If so, why? This is the real question you are posing.

One example of the Church’s infallible authority: The Church’s teaching on morals i.e. contraception. All Christian churches taught against it until about 1930. Then, many suddenly said that it was OK. Why then, and why so many? Prophets of the day said it would only lead to abortion and they were pounded for their assertions. Well, in 1973, legal abortion came. Well, that’s all the further it will go, they said. Except for some who protested that it would lead to euthanasia. They were also pounded in public opinion. Well, euthanasia is here. Next, it will lead to cloning. It’s also here. Human-animal hybrids? They are trying. We are opening doors that should never have been opened, to the evil one’s delight.

The Catholic Church has maintained a rock-solid teaching against any and all of this. Everyone else has caved, and look at the mess this world is in. We all need a rock of stability in order to make sense of this world, and that is what you are lacking at this point in your life. I’m praying for you.

Christ’s peace.

What do you mean “Why so bitter?”?
There was nothing the slightest bit bitter about my challenge.
You claimed “It’s far easier to prove the Church’s infallibility than it is to prove God’s existence”.
I said “Well, prove it”. That is not being bitter. You can’t just make all-encompassing absolute claims and whine when someone challenges you to support those claims.

Your “example” is hardly a proof of infallible authority. Come on, do you take me for an uneducated teenager who has never studied spirituality other than what some Church elder has told me I must believe?

As for your prayers, in the same way I responded to Katrina:
I can say that a fully conscious awareness as my immortal soul is certainly a first goal. By awareness, I’m not referring to mere belief - whether created by my imagination or some Catholic theologian or any other source.

If you wish to pray that I reach that awareness, I whole heartedly accept that prayer and will, in kind, offer the identical prayer for you. Do not, however, pray for my acceptance of Catholicism - even if you sincerely believe that’s the only way to achieve conscious awareness of one’s immortal soul. My prayer for you will also not involve any imagining of how the result should come about. To be clear, that includes not praying for you to leave the Church.

God bless you in His own way, far beyond anything the all too fallible Catholic Church hierarchy can ever dream up.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Anyone who has read more than a dozen post on ***CA Forum ***is aware of the intensity of “Catholic Bashing.”

Why do you think this is?

God bless,
PJM m.c.

Probably the same reason why people love talking about (or bashing) homosexuality or the Mormon church. It’s a hot topic.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[anon5216]

So you don’t believe in the Bible at all?
I explained this very clearly in a previous post:
The various writings collected together that we call The Bible, simply can’t be proven as the undistorted dictation of God! They amount to recollections and interpretations by various individuals of sometimes very extraordinary experiences. These cannot be considered any more accurate than a group of contemporary people reporting as eyewitnesses to a current event. The more extraordinary the event, the more diverse the descriptions get and the less factually reliable they get. At best, these writings could honestly reflect the writer’s response and interpretation of an event - that doesn’t mean the writer’s response and interpretation was objectively accurate.

Are you atheist? No

if not, how can you believe in God without believing His word?
Unlike many others, I don’t just assume the biblical writings are “His word” - see above.

How do you pick and choose what to believe that you can’t prove with your senses?
There are more modes of perception other than the senses, which are themselves not guaranteed reliable. I accept responsibility for my spiritual path, and mistakes I may make. To hand over that responsibility to other people who simply define a set of beliefs and rules to follow with no proof of their claims would be utter foolishness. You make believe their claims and be satisfied with your belief. That’s your business.

How do you put faith or trust in anything or anyone without your proof?
To give a somewhat stretched analogy, I use the scientific method.
Review existing spiritual literature and claims. Assess which theories have a likelihood of producing results. Choose a path to investigate that I have the means at my disposal to reproduce. Accept personal responsibility for my results.

Now, before you go picking apart the above analogy, keep in mind this is not a rigid, fixed formula that I follow as if it was some infallible revelation direct from God to me or some other human I choose to blindly follow. It’s just a rough, short, easily misinterpreted approximation. I’m not defining a new religion here

 

[erinelf88]

To be frank, no one should be using generalizations, period.

Regarding those who bash the church, we cannot pretend to know every person’s psyche, and to assume we know their reasons for doing so is wrong. The best way to anger someone bashing the church, and in turn to turn them away from the church, is to tell them “you’re only doing this because you know we’re right.” Anyone can use that excuse for any argument, so stop using it, period. You cannot know a person’s past, their experiences, their knowledge, their understanding, and especially, their soul. Stop trying, EVERYone.

Regarding those who have left the Church, it’s just as wrong to assume they left because they thought it was too hard. I have no doubt that some people who have left the Church did so because they couldn’t find the answers they were looking for. There were things left unexplained, issues they had with theology or doctrine. Maybe their priest was a bad priest, who taught them incorrectly- I know many cradle Catholics who couldn’t stand up for their faith when they needed to, because they were honestly ignorant of Church teaching and reasoning. It’s not enough to teach that “the Church says this.” If we want to educate our children and our converts, and if we want to prepare them to defend themselves against the attacks that will inevitably come, we need to tell them, “here’s what the Church teaches. here’s why. Here are some common objections, and here’s the Church’s answer to them. Any questions?”

Resorting to name calling, resorting to calling someone a “wannabe” because they disagree with the Church, is wrong, period. That’s acting out of hate. If we want to show those who hate the Church what the Church is really about, we need to act out of love, in every way we can.

Anon, I will pray that you turn to the Catholic Church. To not do so would be a grave violation of what Christ commanded me to do. Pray for me in any way you want. You can pray that I’ll stop my conversion and leave the Church forever, if you want. You see, I’m not insecure about this. I don’t think you praying for me to leave the Church will have the intended effect. If you’re secure in what you believe, then you shouldn’t be worried, either. My conversations with God are between He and I, and we will talk together about the things most important to Him, regarding my life and the lives of those with whom I interact. Our Lady of Fatima specifically told us to pray for the conversion of sinners. I take this to mean the conversion of non-Christians and the return of all Christians to the Catholic Church. And if my Lady so commands me, I will obey. I hope you can respect that I will do this.

God bless you all, and remember: think in love, listen in love, speak in love, and act in love, all the time.

 

[Katrina5]

It’s not a question of needing to forgive some particular Catholic’s actual or perceived transgression against me. And spiritual “home” is not the Catholic Church.

As to searching, I can say that a fully conscious awareness as my immortal soul is certainly a first goal. By awareness, I’m not referring to mere belief - whether created by my imagination or some Catholic theologian or any other source.

If you wish to pray that I reach that awareness, I whole heartedly accept that prayer and will, in kind, offer the identical prayer for you. Do not, however, pray for my acceptance of Catholicism - even if you sincerely believe that’s the only way to achieve conscious awareness of one’s immortal soul. My prayer for you will also not involve any imagining of how the result should come about. To be clear, that includes not praying for you to leave the Church.

God bless you in His own way, far beyond anything the all too fallible Catholic Church hierarchy can ever dream up.

Dear Anon,
Thank you for your kind reply to my offer of prayer for you, and your offer to pray for me.
I don’t want you to be offended by what I write. No I am not praying that you will “revert”. I want you to find the peace that you deserve, in whatever way God leads you. I was very upset by some of the tone this thread was taking.
It seemed to be pointless attacks and arguments.
I know that many people left the church, in fact I did for awhile after Vatican II made so many changes too fast and too confusing.
I also met a man in his 40’s who was very bitter because a nun in third grade had called him a “pagan”. He said, some thirty years years later, through clenched teeth, “I’m not a pagan!”
That wounded him so deeply as an 8 year old child that he left.
As a social worker, I found that many people are suffering and carrying around old hurts and wounds and make decisions as adults that are based on something that happened in their childhood.
I was only suggesting that this might be something you would want to explore.
I know you love God, or you wouldn’t be on this website.
And God love you for tryig to make sense of things that seem so wrong.
Not everyone on here knows what they are talking about.
What I have discovered about the Catholic Church is that there is room for everyone at Christ’s Table. There are superstitious people who think miracles are the same as magic. Yet there are deeply intellectual people who try to understand why we believe what we do.
The Church is a treasure trove to me. It runs deep into mystery and beauty. It touches my emotions through art, music and prayer.
We are called to love another. That’s all that matters. That sounds so simple, yet it is a step by step journey that we all make. We live in a complex world and I wouldn’t water down the truth to a few pat sayings, yet sometimes that is how we survive in this world.
Again, thank you for reponding to me. We can live together in peace.

 

[anon5216]

Anon, I will pray that you turn to the Catholic Church. To not do so would be a grave violation of what Christ commanded me to do. Pray for me in any way you want. You can pray that I’ll stop my conversion and leave the Church forever, if you want. You see, I’m not insecure about this. I don’t think you praying for me to leave the Church will have the intended effect. If you’re secure in what you believe, then you shouldn’t be worried, either. My conversations with God are between He and I, and we will talk together about the things most important to Him, regarding my life and the lives of those with whom I interact. Our Lady of Fatima specifically told us to pray for the conversion of sinners. I take this to mean the conversion of non-Christians and the return of all Christians to the Catholic Church. And if my Lady so commands me, I will obey. I hope you can respect that I will do this.

God bless you all, and remember: think in love, listen in love, speak in love, and act in love, all the time.

erinelf88,

In accord with your request, I pray that you may see the Truth.

Not my ‘idea’ of Truth, not your ‘idea’ of Truth, but just Truth - no strings attached. No preconceptions as to how God chooses to make that come about or what His Truth is - neither mine nor yours nor the Church’s preconceptions.

If you read my prior posts, you would know I have no intention of praying for anyone to leave the Church. You see, that is not my agenda. After all, Padre Pio seemed to have done quite nicely from a spiritual point of view within the Church - as did other individuals. The thing is, I’m aware of many people from many cultural and religious backgrounds who did equally well (not, of course, identically outwardly manifested). The common threads of their spiritual success had nothing to do with specific external associations or memberships or beliefs.

People should really stop beating around the bush with their prayers. What are the ultimate goals of the Spiritual Path? Pray directly for those. Why waste time praying for specific steps you think you or someone else should take at a given moment in time to reach those ultimate goals. There are plenty of ordinary humans with religious titles (or not) who are more than happy to assign you specific steps - no need for prayer there. All you need is to abdicate your personal spiritual responsibility to some other human. Why not actually have the security of faith that God might have a better perspective on the details of a specific person’s appropriate spiritual path and surrender the specifics to God?

 

[anon5216]

Katrina,

Rest assured, I’m not offended by anything you wrote.

May God’s Peace always be tangibly felt in your life and those you interact with.

 

[po18guy]

What do you mean “Why so bitter?”?
There was nothing the slightest bit bitter about my challenge.
You claimed “It’s far easier to prove the Church’s infallibility than it is to prove God’s existence”.
I said “Well, prove it”. That is not being bitter. You can’t just make all-encompassing absolute claims and whine when someone challenges you to support those claims.

Your “example” is hardly a proof of infallible authority. Come on, do you take me for an uneducated teenager who has never studied spirituality other than what some Church elder has told me I must believe?

As for your prayers, in the same way I responded to Katrina:
I can say that a fully conscious awareness as my immortal soul is certainly a first goal. By awareness, I’m not referring to mere belief - whether created by my imagination or some Catholic theologian or any other source.

If you wish to pray that I reach that awareness, I whole heartedly accept that prayer and will, in kind, offer the identical prayer for you. Do not, however, pray for my acceptance of Catholicism - even if you sincerely believe that’s the only way to achieve conscious awareness of one’s immortal soul. My prayer for you will also not involve any imagining of how the result should come about. To be clear, that includes not praying for you to leave the Church.

God bless you in His own way, far beyond anything the all too fallible Catholic Church hierarchy can ever dream up.

This speaks for itself.

 

[twb1621]

…

Ok, with due respect, I’ll share this with you to help you understand some things as well. let me tell you a bit about learning faith and the error in judging those as having blind faith. There is such a thing as being blind to faith as well.
It’s not always about blind Faith. Example; I was raised Catholic and attended all Catholic Schools but once I became an “adult” I drifted off in my own direction. At age 21 I went into law enforcement and worked in many specialized units of municipal and later federal agencies receiving appropriate training in each based on specialty which allowed for a very diversified background in training and life experiences. I was a highly respected professional investigator and agent. Later in my career I received pension and went private. I appeared at times as a guest investigative commentator for Fox network’s court TV in their NY facility. I trained investigators and many other professionals in specialized areas of interest through my own agency. But since reaching the legal age of all knowing enlightenment at 18 and onward I also developed my own “religious beliefs” based on my opinions in opposition to certain Catholic teachings and those I adopted based on my own conclusions, primary that popular philosophy that “…all that mattered to God was what was in your heart and you do the best you can, that it makes no difference what faith you belong to…”. I had authority and controlled many things, my ego proved it. that kind of thing. I was separated from the Catholic Church for over 25 years.

After several life events took place that led me to question not having God in my life but still having opinions adverse to the Catholic Church, I started looking at other Christian denominations and non-denominational forms of worship. What a hodgepodge of Bible versions and interpretations I found. I believed in Christ but that was as far as it went at that point and a Catholic priest told me I was “too analytical” and it was interfering with my faith. I was sure I was analytical which is one of the qualities that made me so successful in my profession, it was necessary to perform an accurate investigation, but I didn’t accept being “Too Analytical”. What I had to make sure of for myself is that if I was going to be involved in worship, I had to believe it to be the True Church, so I stepped back and researched Christianity with the tools of my profession both from recent days to its origin, then from it’s origin to today. I researched every point that came up in any form of question and that led directly to the Catholic Church which led me to use the Bible of the Catholic Church along with many other resources. I also realized how much my adoption of my own beliefs when I was younger was no different than those who founded other Christian faiths, which explained in part why there are so many. In studying scripture I began with the New Testament and went backward to the Old Testament. In doing it that way I was able to better put together the links in the prophecies of the coming of the messiah to the Life of Jesus. To simplify my direction to you, I analytically performed my own investigation over more than five years and without doubt proved to myself the Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ and that there are more than enough assertions by Christ himself to solidify that if you are to believe in Jesus, you have to believe in His Word and His word is a covenant that part of which asserted His Church would never fail even with the prophesized heresies and corruption that would infest her at times. That those who persevered in her would be saved by His word. In all this study and research I became ashamed of myself over those issues I disagreed with in the teachings of the Catholic Faith for so many years. I realized those teachings where instructed by Jesus to the apostles and carried on through the Sacred Tradition and Scripture. I also realized the biggest problem that causes some Catholics to be distant or weak in the practice of their faith is unintentional ignorance by way of a lack of study and knowledge in the Word of God. Some Catholics seem to think if they go through catholic school or CCD that once finished, they know what they are suppose to know, maybe all there is to know. They fail to realize it is ever person’s responsibility to seek knowledge of God independantly, which in turn will lead to love, and devotion to Him. I continue to study and learn and can’t get enough knowledge of Him to get as close to Him as I wish to be. That is how much I have learned to love Him and devote myself to Him. I only regret all the years I lost not learning sooner.

 

[po18guy]

It’s not always about blind Faith. Example; I was raised Catholic and attended all Catholic Schools but once I became an “adult” I drifted off in my own direction. At age 21 I went into law enforcement and worked in many specialized units of municipal and later federal agencies receiving appropriate training in each based on specialty which allowed for a very diversified background in training and life experiences. I was a highly respected professional investigator and agent. Later in my career I received pension and went private. I appeared at times as a guest investigative commentator for Fox network’s court TV in their NY facility. I trained investigators and many other professionals in specialized areas of interest through my own agency. But since reaching the legal age of all knowing enlightenment at 18 and onward I also developed my own “religious beliefs” based on my opinions in opposition to certain Catholic teachings and those I adopted based on my own conclusions, primary that popular philosophy that “…all that mattered to God was what was in your heart and you do the best you can, that it makes no difference what faith you belong to…”. I had authority and controlled many things, my ego proved it. that kind of thing. I was separated from the Catholic Church for over 25 years.

After several life events took place that led me to question not having God in my life but still having opinions adverse to the Catholic Church, I started looking at other Christian denominations and non-denominational forms of worship. What a hodgepodge of Bible versions and interpretations I found. I believed in Christ but that was as far as it went at that point and a Catholic priest told me I was “too analytical” and it was interfering with my faith. I was sure I was analytical which is one of the qualities that made me so successful in my profession, it was necessary to perform an accurate investigation, but I didn’t accept being “Too Analytical”. What I had to make sure of for myself is that if I was going to be involved in worship, I had to believe it to be the True Church, so I stepped back and researched Christianity with the tools of my profession both from recent days to its origin, then from it’s origin to today. I researched every point that came up in any form of question and that led directly to the Catholic Church which led me to use the Bible of the Catholic Church along with many other resources. I also realized how much my adoption of my own beliefs when I was younger was no different than those who founded other Christian faiths, which explained in part why there are so many. In studying scripture I began with the New Testament and went backward to the Old Testament. In doing it that way I was able to better put together the links in the prophecies of the coming of the messiah to the Life of Jesus. To simplify my direction to you, I analytically performed my own investigation over more than five years and without doubt proved to myself the Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ and that there are more than enough assertions by Christ himself to solidify that if you are to believe in Jesus, you have to believe in His Word and His word is a covenant that part of which asserted His Church would never fail even with the prophesized heresies and corruption that would infest her at times. That those who persevered in her would be saved by His word. In all this study and research I became ashamed of myself over those issues I disagreed with in the teachings of the Catholic Faith for so many years. I realized those teachings where instructed by Jesus to the apostles and carried on through the Sacred Tradition and Scripture. I also realized the biggest problem that causes some Catholics to be distant or weak in the practice of their faith is unintentional ignorance by way of a lack of study and knowledge in the Word of God. Some Catholics seem to think if they go through catholic school or CCD that once finished, they know what they are suppose to know, maybe all there is to know. They fail to realize it is ever person’s responsibility to seek knowledge of God independantly, which in turn will lead to love, and devotion to Him. I continue to study and learn and can’t get enough knowledge of Him to get as close to Him as I wish to be. That is how much I have learned to love Him and devote myself to Him. I only regret all the years I lost not learning sooner.

A heartfelt testimony, and I hope that it is digested by those who doubt the One True Church. In my case, I had absolutely no religious upbringing at all, save for my friendship with Italian Catholic neighbors. After the Lord sent me a Catholic woman and we were married, I decided that unity was to be sought within the family. I was brought into the faith at 35, and several years passed before the Holy Spirit erased my objections to Catholic teaching. I had to bear with Him, trusting Him.

My career is somewhat similar to yours, except I had the advantage of anonymity within it. It appears now that cancer may be retiring me early, right at the 30 year mark - the Lord knows. However, if all of the doubters and “nons” on these forums had any idea of the richness, the fulness of the Catholic faith, they would instantly have a second look. More Sacraments, more devotions, more holy practices, much more history, an unbroken line of succession tracing directly to Christ, the ability to attend mass in virtually every nation on earth, the ability to spend time with Christ in the Blessed Sacrament… well there’s just little comparison.

The minor miracles I have witnessed in intercession before the Blessed Sacrament, the intense spiritual fulfillment of partaking of the Eucharist make all other faith traditions seem empty, flat. I am home and can go nowhere else. We even have more sacred scripture that they do.

Christ’s peace.

 

[twb1621]

A heartfelt testimony, and I hope that it is digested by those who doubt the One True Church. In my case, I had absolutely no religious upbringing at all, save for my friendship with Italian Catholic neighbors. After the Lord sent me a Catholic woman and we were married, I decided that unity was to be sought within the family. I was brought into the faith at 35, and several years passed before the Holy Spirit erased my objections to Catholic teaching. I had to bear with Him, trusting Him.

My career is somewhat similar to yours, except I had the advantage of anonymity within it. It appears now that cancer may be retiring me early, right at the 30 year mark - the Lord knows. However, if all of the doubters and “nons” on these forums had any idea of the richness, the fulness of the Catholic faith, they would instantly have a second look. More Sacraments, more devotions, more holy practices, much more history, an unbroken line of succession tracing directly to Christ, the ability to attend mass in virtually every nation on earth, the ability to spend time with Christ in the Blessed Sacrament… well there’s just little comparison.

The minor miracles I have witnessed in intercession before the Blessed Sacrament, the intense spiritual fulfillment of partaking of the Eucharist make all other faith traditions seem empty, flat. I am home and can go nowhere else. We even have more sacred scripture that they do.

Christ’s peace.

Let it be my brother, that my prays join with yours in the path God chooses for us.

 

[Peccavi]

Its in part inherited from the past. Catholics were seen in the Uk
a) as owing their allegiance to a foreign power ( ie the Vatican State) - reinforced by the LATIN Mass.
b) being Celtic immigrants, particularly Irish in Glasgow and Liverpool and parts of London
c) favouring Republicanism and Socialism in the UK or
d) linked to fascism

today its more about Catholic views on
birth control
abortion
gay rights

its also envy
of Catholic education
of Catholic faith

Mix these together and you get a powerful explosion of fear, resentment and envy.

• but as Christ says we gotta do good to those who hurt us, we must turn the other cheek. Also salvation is not a social event but an individual choice. Imposing our values on a reluctant society is only going to breed more hatred. each of us has free choice in all matters of personal behaviour and must answer individually to their conscience and to God.

 

[po18guy]

Its in part inherited from the past. Catholics were seen in the Uk
a) as owing their allegiance to a foreign power ( ie the Vatican State) - reinforced by the LATIN Mass.
b) being Celtic immigrants, particularly Irish in Glasgow and Liverpool and parts of London
c) favouring Republicanism and Socialism in the UK or
d) linked to fascism

today its more about Catholic views on
birth control
abortion
gay rights

its also envy
of Catholic education
of Catholic faith

Mix these together and you get a powerful explosion of fear, resentment and envy.

• but as Christ says we gotta do good to those who hurt us, we must turn the other cheek. Also salvation is not a social event but an individual choice. Imposing our values on a reluctant society is only going to breed more hatred. each of us has free choice in all matters of personal behaviour and must answer individually to their conscience and to God.

Well said.

 

[Salonika]

I’m posting this answer before reading all the postings - not something I usually do but necessary in this case so that I give my opinion not a reaction to others views.

Think we need to distinguish betwen those who bash Catholicism as a whole and those who question (aspects of) Catholicism.

Think there are many reasons *why people bash Catholicism *including

• intolerance of difference (they probably bash other institutions and ideas they disagree with in the same way)
• they consider they have been damaged by aspects of the Catholicism they have experienced
• someone close to them has been damaged by aspects of Catholicism they have experienced

Some of these can be recent experiences and some can be from the recent or or older past. An example of the later is one in a branch of my family where because the deceased was not a Catholic the coffin was placed in the foyer not in the Church.

*Those who question aspects of Catholicism *usually have a different motivation:

• they cannot understand or accept a religion/any religion that prescribes areas of people’s lives that they consider should be determined by a person’s individual conscience
• in addition to the above they believe their conscience is being disrespected
• aspects of Catholicism are the opposite of their views

These include the ban on artifical contraception and requiring the non-Catholic partner to promise to allow or encourage any children to be brough up Catholic.

 

[YinYangMom]

I’m posting this answer before reading all the postings - not something I usually do but necessary in this case so that I give my opinion not a reaction to others views.

Think we need to distinguish betwen those who bash Catholicism as a whole and those who question (aspects of) Catholicism.

Think there are many reasons *why people bash Catholicism *including

• intolerance of difference (they probably bash other institutions and ideas they disagree with in the same way)
• they consider they have been damaged by aspects of the Catholicism they have experienced
• someone close to them has been damaged by aspects of Catholicism they have experienced

Some of these can be recent experiences and some can be from the recent or or older past. An example of the later is one in a branch of my family where because the deceased was not a Catholic the coffin was placed in the foyer not in the Church.

*Those who question aspects of Catholicism *usually have a different motivation:

• they cannot understand or accept a religion/any religion that prescribes areas of people’s lives that they consider should be determined by a person’s individual conscience
• in addition to the above they believe their conscience is being disrespected
• aspects of Catholicism are the opposite of their views

These include the ban on artifical contraception and requiring the non-Catholic partner to promise to allow or encourage any children to be brough up Catholic.

I see your examples in reverse.
I would state those who question but not necessarily bash are those who experienced damage from representatives of the church directly or indirectly,
and those who bash are the ones who regard individual conscience and free will as theirs and theirs alone to form and follow however they see fit.

The bashers are the ones who refuse to succumb to a higher authority. They mock us for following ‘the Church’ when in reality we are following the teachings of Christ manifested through the Church. They do not want to learn anything about our ways because they see us as lemmings and they see themselves as enlightened. What bothers me most about those kind is the way they cite authors and scholars as ‘valid’ references of ‘debunking’ our beliefs. They will lay their soul following those scholars and yet they call us lemmings for following the scholars of the church.

I do see that those damaged by a negative experience with church doctrine or practice to tend to bash as well, but that’s out of anger and a lack of understanding. They bash the particular practice but I don’t know that they bash everything else about the Church. They seem to have had a falling out more than anything else.

 

[YinYangMom]

Well, prove it.

Don’t forget, if you attempt to use biblical quotes for this “proof”, you have to first prove that the quote itself is the undistorted dictation of God - not just some fallible human’s interpretation/response to some experience of theirs.

To my knowledge, no one has ever proven that the Bible is the undistorted “Word of God”.

Everyone just starts with that as an assumption of faith.
You do remember the old joke about “assume”, don’t you?

Has anyone ever proven that the Bible is the distorted Word of God?

The Bible isn’t a dictation from God to man. I don’t know where you got that impression. It is the guided revelation of God through man. Man is his creation, and he uses man to reveal himself to mankind. Inspiration comes from God, the Bible is a compilation of such inspired revelations but it is not dictated.

Let’s be clear here: The Catholic Church is the One True Church of Jesus Christ. You don’t believe that. You have your reasons and your explanations for that disbelief and you’ve shared them, but you haven’t addressed the original question.

Do you think Catholics bashing is popular? Are you trying to offer a justifiable explanation for why Catholics are bashed? If so, I’m not able to connect the dots so far.

 

[anon5216]

Ok, with due respect, I’ll share this with you to help you understand some things as well. let me tell you a bit about learning faith and the error in judging those as having blind faith. There is such a thing as being blind to faith as well. …

From what you write, is appears you are have landed in the right place for you spiritually, and in no way am I attempting to convince you to change your conclusions about yourself and your spiritual path.

The professional background you describe certainly gives you intellectual tools that can be extremely useful in your spiritual path. I may be mistaken, but I get the impression you stayed within the general circle of Christianity during your 25 years away from Catholicism. Also, that you pretty much started your serious spiritual investigation with the hypothesis that the Bible is the Word of God.

This last point is where, I believe, you and and differ.
I do not believe the Bible, or any other religious scripture from any faith whatsoever, can be accepted as the undistorted “Word of God”. The writers may well be honest about their perceptions and experiences and their interpretation of their experiences, but that doesn’t mean these perceptions and interpretations are objectively 100% accurate. This also does not mean I believe the Bible and other scriptures are false and have no spiritual value.

I am saying that the Catholic Church and other religious groups (Christian and non-Christian alike) treat their sacred writings as if they had high-def video from from different angles and CD quality audio of the source material - not to mention authenticated verification that God Himself directed, recorded, edited and produced that material. With that as a starting premise, they come up with all sorts of highly detailed conclusions, beliefs, rules and whatnot, that may or may not be consistent with their starting premise.

I do not accept that starting premise, and so obviously can’t accept any conclusions based on that premise.
To date, I’ve never come across anything that genuinely proves that premise. The only “proofs” I’ve seen or heard or read really only qualify as debate techniques which “prove” things to those that want to believe in the first place or those that are easily swayed and influenced, while proving nothing to those that aren’t easily influenced or don’t want to believe.

In your case, you seem to handle personal responsibility for your own spiritual growth quite well. Stay in the Church and keep digging deeper and going further in your spiritual life - just don’t stop using the intellectual gifts you have while doing this. Surely you don’t believe that mere membership is the ultimate spiritual goal?

In my case, the Catholic Church simply is not the appropriate context within which to grow spiritually.

 

[CWBetts]

From what you write, is appears you are have landed in the right place for you spiritually, and in no way am I attempting to convince you to change your conclusions about yourself and your spiritual path.

The professional background you describe certainly gives you intellectual tools that can be extremely useful in your spiritual path. I may be mistaken, but I get the impression you stayed within the general circle of Christianity during your 25 years away from Catholicism. Also, that you pretty much started your serious spiritual investigation with the hypothesis that the Bible is the Word of God.

This last point is where, I believe, you and and differ.
I do not believe the Bible, or any other religious scripture from any faith whatsoever, can be accepted as the undistorted “Word of God”. The writers may well be honest about their perceptions and experiences and their interpretation of their experiences, but that doesn’t mean these perceptions and interpretations are objectively 100% accurate. This also does not mean I believe the Bible and other scriptures are false and have no spiritual value.

I am saying that the Catholic Church and other religious groups (Christian and non-Christian alike) treat their sacred writings as if they had high-def video from from different angles and CD quality audio of the source material - not to mention authenticated verification that God Himself directed, recorded, edited and produced that material. With that as a starting premise, they come up with all sorts of highly detailed conclusions, beliefs, rules and whatnot, that may or may not be consistent with their starting premise.

I do not accept that starting premise, and so obviously can’t accept any conclusions based on that premise.
To date, I’ve never come across anything that genuinely proves that premise. The only “proofs” I’ve seen or heard or read really only qualify as debate techniques which “prove” things to those that want to believe in the first place or those that are easily swayed and influenced, while proving nothing to those that aren’t easily influenced or don’t want to believe.

In your case, you seem to handle personal responsibility for your own spiritual growth quite well. Stay in the Church and keep digging deeper and going further in your spiritual life - just don’t stop using the intellectual gifts you have while doing this. Surely you don’t believe that mere membership is the ultimate spiritual goal?

In my case, the Catholic Church simply is not the appropriate context within which to grow spiritually.

You should reread the Forum Rules. It is against the rules to prosylatize people away from the Catholic Faith.

 

[erinelf88]

I don’t think he IS proselytizing people away from the Catholic Church. On the contrary- he is encouraging those who feel so called to join the Church, while remaining firm in his assertions that it isn’t right for him. It’s our duty to respect his decisions for his own life.

 

[twb1621]

From what you write, is appears you are have landed in the right place for you spiritually, and in no way am I attempting to convince you to change your conclusions about yourself and your spiritual path.

The professional background you describe certainly gives you intellectual tools that can be extremely useful in your spiritual path. I may be mistaken, but I get the impression you stayed within the general circle of Christianity during your 25 years away from Catholicism. Also, that you pretty much started your serious spiritual investigation with the hypothesis that the Bible is the Word of God.

This last point is where, I believe, you and and differ.
I do not believe the Bible, or any other religious scripture from any faith whatsoever, can be accepted as the undistorted “Word of God”. The writers may well be honest about their perceptions and experiences and their interpretation of their experiences, but that doesn’t mean these perceptions and interpretations are objectively 100% accurate. This also does not mean I believe the Bible and other scriptures are false and have no spiritual value.

I am saying that the Catholic Church and other religious groups (Christian and non-Christian alike) treat their sacred writings as if they had high-def video from from different angles and CD quality audio of the source material - not to mention authenticated verification that God Himself directed, recorded, edited and produced that material. With that as a starting premise, they come up with all sorts of highly detailed conclusions, beliefs, rules and whatnot, that may or may not be consistent with their starting premise.

I do not accept that starting premise, and so obviously can’t accept any conclusions based on that premise.
To date, I’ve never come across anything that genuinely proves that premise. The only “proofs” I’ve seen or heard or read really only qualify as debate techniques which “prove” things to those that want to believe in the first place or those that are easily swayed and influenced, while proving nothing to those that aren’t easily influenced or don’t want to believe.

In your case, you seem to handle personal responsibility for your own spiritual growth quite well. Stay in the Church and keep digging deeper and going further in your spiritual life - just don’t stop using the intellectual gifts you have while doing this. Surely you don’t believe that mere membership is the ultimate spiritual goal?Absolutely not, your correct on that.
In my case, the Catholic Church simply is not the appropriate context within which to grow spiritually.

I understand your position and realize you have not yet arrived at that point to actually find the answers that will give you the proof you need. I can’t say I don’t understand needing proof because I was there. When the time comes and I will pray that it comes for you, try starting with the historic aspects of the scriptures. The messiah of the NT new all that would happen with His people and Church throughout its lifetime until His return. The documentation has been verified by many scholars and historians both Catholic and Non-Catholic as to what was written and the age of those documents. Over many many centuries well before the arrival of Christ, the OT prophets wrote in what we recognize as God’s word about the life and death of the messiah all of which came to be in Jesus life and death. There is no way all the prophacies could have been that accurate if it didn’t come from God. And no way all the prophacies and warnings and teachings of Jesus could have come from anyone else but the Messiah. These are again verified through historic means and verified by not only the devoted but the enemies of those devoted to God. After two thousand years of teaching the same teachings and practicing the same traditions, no one could have protected a fraudulent Church or faith from being exposed for two thousand years. Especially realizing how many learned people have tried to find proof against her. If your time comes, start with these things because they can be verified. Maybe that will give you the foundation to take it further.