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cathgal
Guest
There you go again, making one exclusive of the other.
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Namesake
Guest
I’m not going in a circle at all. Like I said, we are very close to the same belief. You are correct that sin is death and Christ paid our ransom so that sin would not doom us to eternal death. You are correct.
But, His resurrection was the most important factor. The resurrection gives us the promise of eternal life through Him.
His death on the cross is only part of the story of salvation. It is necessary, but not sufficient. His resurrection combined with His sacrifice is sufficient.
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pete_29
Guest
I disagree, Even without the resurrection, Christ still died for our sins. There would be no hope of salvation without that act.
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Namesake
Guest
OK, then explain how Christ being crucified, dead, and buried would be enough?
BTW, I don’t believe for a nano second that you believe that the crucifixion was enough.
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cathgal
Guest
Are you beginning to see both action as ONE then?
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Namesake
Guest
No. I have always considered the sacrifice and the resurrection as essentially one action. One would not have been nearly as significant without the other. Christ raised people from the dead but they did not pay for our sin. Many people were crucified but not resurrected, and therefore they did not hold out the promise of eternal life.
The two together, sacrifice and resurrection, make the whole package come together for our salvation in Christ. So it’s one action separated into two parts. Neither stands alone as sufficient for our salvation.
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pete_29
Guest
What saved us from our sins, Jesus death or His Resurrection. Bear with me a bit here,as I’m not very smart, And I don’t want to sound sacreligious, and I can’t think of any other way of getting my idea across, but if Jesus had died of natural causes and then was resurrected, would our sins have been forgiven.
This didn’t come out right, but it’s the best I can do. Sorry
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pete_29
Guest
Okay, I think I know what you’re getting at, but i still think it’s beneficial for us to see what Jesus went through for us. It reminds me of the Great Love God has for us.
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Namesake
Guest
That is why, even as a Protestant, I have a beautiful crucifix above my desk.
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pete_29
Guest
I guess we’re not arguing then.
Thanks for your patience.
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Jacquelinem
Guest
During Mass before receiving Eucharist, we sing or recite a memorial acclamation.
“Dying you destroyed our death,
Rising you restored our life,
Lord Jesus, come in glory”
It’s very relevant that our Lord both suffered and died for us and arose again to descend into heaven. Both events were prophesized in the Old Testament by several of the prophets. But to me, the empty cross without Jesus on it, again, is just an empty cross.
“Dying you destroyed our death,
Rising you restored our life,
Lord Jesus, come in glory”
It’s very relevant that our Lord both suffered and died for us and arose again to descend into heaven. Both events were prophesized in the Old Testament by several of the prophets. But to me, the empty cross without Jesus on it, again, is just an empty cross.
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Namesake
Guest
But to Protestants the empty cross is a symbol of something beyond death. He didn’t remain on the cross just as He didn’t remain dead. The cross wasn’t the last thing, it was a step toward our salvation, not the end.
Just to be clear, Protestants do respect the sacrifice of our Lord. I dare say that we respect the sacrifice as much as Catholics do. But we focus on Christ crucified and risen. It’s a package deal.
The empty cross reminds us of the resurrection, which is the hopeful part of His gift. He died for us, but the best part is that He was resurrected. We can hope for the same, life without end through Him.
po18guy
Well-known member
You completely misundrstand Catholic theology here. One sacrifice for all time. It is made present to us at mass. One Sacrfice. Not two, two hundred or two thousand. One. This is one of the biggest whoppers repeated about Catholicism. If you still do not understand, please ask for additional teaching.
Also, Christ as a child was weak, coming to us in humble form. In His weakness as baby, as well as hanging on the cross, we are made strong. Through His death, we have the promise of eternal life. He was God even in the womb - that’s why John the baptist, in Elizabeth’s womb, leapt for joy when Mary visited. It’s right there in your bible. It is written. We believe it.
Christ’s peace.
Some additional teaching:
The Eucharist: A Lutheran-Roman Catholic Statement
October 1, 1967
“Lutherans and Roman Catholics alike acknowledge that in the Lord’s supper "Christ is present as the Crucified who died for our sins and who rose again for our justification, as the once-for-all sacrifice for the sins of the world who gives himself to the faithful.”
usccb.org/seia/luthrc_eucharist_1968.shtml
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Namesake
Guest
I disagree. Through His resurrection we have the promise of eternal life in Him. It is Christ crucified and raised from the dead. Not Christ dead on the cross that promises life eternal through Him.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
True, lol.
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Namesake
Guest
Not true at all holdencaulfield. We do not worship a meaningless tree, and you know that. Get real man!
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Syele
Guest
So all the Catholic Churches that have Crosses on their roofs and signs worship trees?? This thread is getting ridiculous.
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Publisher
Guest
From the peanut gallery…“Getting”??? It seems to me it began that way.So all the Catholic Churches that have Crosses on their roofs and signs worship trees?? **This thread is **getting ridiculous.
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moondweller
Guest
Yes. When understood in its proper context.
Yes - in respect to forgiveness of sins.
I agree, but God displays His infinite power even in weakness:1 Cor. 1:21-25 "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."The weakness of God was displayed in the crucifixion, death and burial of Messiah (“God was in Christ…”) And yet in that sacrificial death resided the infinite power of God Almighty to save every sinner who turns from unbelief to belief in Him.
The resurrection was God’s “amen” to what Christ accomplished through the crucifixion.
The O.P. wanted to know why Jesus is never on the cross in Protestant churches. As both I and “Namesake” have told you, a vacant cross testifies to BOTH His sacrificial death and subsequent, bodily resurrection unto glory. The vacant cross speaks to His substitutionary, sacrificial work on our the cross and His High Priestly work now in heaven for us.
“Namesake” is absolutely correct in stating that salvation is not complete without Christ’s bodily resurrection, because although His substitutionary, sacrificial death is the power of God to pardon, forever, ALL the sins of those who believe in Him (because when sin has been laid on the Substitute, it can never be laid back on the sinner), it is His resurrection LIFE (eternal, everlasting) that is gifted to the believer upon personal belief in Him.Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.The cross speaks to the power of His sacrificial death for the forgiveness of sins; it’s vacancy speaks to the power of His resurrected LIFE gifted to those who believe. Together they complete the believer’s salvation.
Scripture reveals that the true believer has died with Christ in His death, and he is now raised to new life “in Him” through His bodily resurrection. This is divine salvation:Col 3:1-3 “Therefore if (i.e., since) you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.”
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