Wives, Submit to your own husbands as to the Lord

[whatevergirl]

Quite the contrary, this was the natural order of things before sin entered the world. God created her to be a help meet, a helper sufficient to meet all his needs, and when sin entered the world and disordered all things, God was saying that she would STILL be subservient to him, but now it’s going to be a lot harder because they’re both sinful. It’s a lot easier to obey a perfect, sinless husband, but the cost of that sin was that neither of them were perfect anymore, but she’d still be put in the chain of command where God intended her to be in the first place, only now it’d be a struggle for both of them.

Yes, Jesus paid the price, but the consequences of Original, and personal, sin still weighs on each individual’s conscience.

The woman DOES have God as her head, when she has her husband for a head. By serving and obeying him she is serving and obeying God. This isn’t a superior/inferior issue or more human/less human. This is the chain of command and authority that God set up, from the beginning, made difficult by our sin.

And frankly, God doesn’t care whether the man is “worthy” of being the head of the wife. He doesn’t say a stinking thing about only respecting authority when your husband is right, just like he doesn’t say “Husbands, love your wives, but only when she’s not a nag, shrew, witch, or soul-leeching denigrator.” For about the twenty-seventh time, our husband’s disobedience doesn’t negate our obligation to obey.

*In your last paragraph, I politely disagree…if a woman is being abused by her husband…or he is abusing his kids, etc…no way she should stay in such a situation and ‘‘obey.’’ Also, it’s a two fold statement…Women, be submissive to your husbands, Husbands, love your wives as Christ so loved the Church. Perhaps, it doesn’t seem contingent, but I highly doubt God would expect us wives to be submissive to a men who are abusive, etc. So, again, it’s a two fold statement. Not–women, submit to your husbands, end of sentence. It GOES ALONG WITH husbands, love your wives as Christ so loved His Church. If a man doesn’t love his wife in that way, whether or not she submits, it will be a so-so at best marriage. Marriage is a two-way street. *

 

[agapewolf]

*In your last paragraph, I politely disagree…if a woman is being abused by her husband…or he is abusing his kids, etc…no way she should stay in such a situation and ‘‘obey.’’ Also, it’s a two fold statement…Women, be submissive to your husbands, Husbands, love your wives as Christ so loved the Church. Perhaps, it doesn’t seem contingent, but I highly doubt God would expect us wives to be submissive to a men who are abusive, etc. So, again, it’s a two fold statement. Not–women, submit to your husbands, end of sentence. It GOES ALONG WITH husbands, love your wives as Christ so loved His Church. If a man doesn’t love his wife in that way, whether or not she submits, it will be a so-so at best marriage. Marriage is a two-way street. *

I don’t think anyone is advocating an abusive situation, however, we must look at the saints and how they endured their lives to understand virtuous living.

Read about Padre Pio, and his obedience to those above him.

 

[whatevergirl]

I don’t think anyone is advocating an abusive situation, however, we must look at the saints and how they endured their lives to understand virtuous living.

Read about Padre Pio, and his obedience to those above him.

*We can become virtuous, without being abused. Marriage is not about men behaving anyway they please, and women’s unwaivering acceptance of it. That is a twisting of what St Paul meant when he stated that women should be submissive. Good marriages happen when both husband and wife love one another, in the way Christ loved the Church, and when wives don’t compete with their husbands for head of household-ship. Both husband and wife seeking the good of the other. I often find these threads leading others to think that in order to be a good Catholic wife, women are solely responsible for how good or bad a marriage ends up. It takes two to make it work well. *

 

[Tigertame4]

i would go to the EWTN website and look for the women of grace show recently with Father Mitch Pacwa as the guest. They talked about the roles of women and men in marriage. You submit to your husband and HE submits to you. Father said the Man does not rest in his easy chair in the marriage but is to be like Christ-nailed to the cross! He must give of himself to the family entirely!

 

[whatevergirl]

i would go to the EWTN website and look for the women of grace show recently with Father Mitch Pacwa as the guest. They talked about the roles of women and men in marriage. You submit to your husband and HE submits to you. Father said the Man does not rest in his easy chair in the marriage but is to be like Christ-nailed to the cross! He must give of himself to the family entirely!

*That is really beautiful…I am going to check that out…thank you. *

 

[adopted_heir]

Oh my. Haven’t we gone over the abusive situation before . . . multiple times? This is starting to sound really redundant. Nobody’s advocating abusive husbands. But he is the head of the wife, even if he’s a jerk. Really I’m getting the feeling of a scratched record.

 

[whatevergirl]

Oh my. Haven’t we gone over the abusive situation before . . . multiple times? This is starting to sound really redundant. Nobody’s advocating abusive husbands. But he is the head of the wife, even if he’s a jerk. Really I’m getting the feeling of a scratched record.

Christ said husbands are to love their wives as He loves His Church. The wife has HER responsibility, and the husband, his. That’s all I’m saying here. It seems that there is this notion that the husband has no responsibility to his wife. He does…he has to also live up to Christ’s teachings. With the head of household role, comes responsibilty. Submission of wives doesn’t translate to it’s the husband’s way or the highway. *

 

[ac_claire]

Adopted heir wasn’t talking about abusive husbands here:

And frankly, God doesn’t care whether the man is “worthy” of being the head of the wife. He doesn’t say a stinking thing about only respecting authority when your husband is right, just like he doesn’t say “Husbands, love your wives, but only when she’s not a nag, shrew, witch, or soul-leeching denigrator.” For about the twenty-seventh time, our husband’s disobedience doesn’t negate our obligation to obey.

Her simple point is that St. Paul’s exhortations to both husbands and wives are not conditional. We are not only subject to our husbands when they are perfect gentlemen and wise leaders, and our husbands are not only commanded to love us if our behavior is sweet and lovable. The obligation is still there. In other words, we’re stuck with eachother through thick and thin. That’s all.

Christ said husbands are to love their wives as He loves His Church. The wife has HER responsibility, and the husband, his. That’s all I’m saying here. It seems that there is this notion that the husband has no responsibility to his wife. He does…he has to also live up to Christ’s teachings. With the head of household role, comes responsibilty. Submission of wives doesn’t translate to it’s the husband’s way or the highway. *

This is a good point, wg. But…what are you replying to? Where exactly is anyone saying otherwise?

 

[whatevergirl]

Adopted heir wasn’t talking about abusive husbands here:

Her simple point is that St. Paul’s exhortations to both husbands and wives are not conditional. We are not only subject to our husbands when they are perfect gentlemen and wise leaders, and our husbands are not only commanded to love us if our behavior is sweet and lovable. The obligation is still there. In other words, we’re stuck with eachother through thick and thin. That’s all.

*Ok…that is a great way of putting it! Sorry adopted heir, you needed to word it differently. I agree with this, claire. *

 

[quacker66]

Christ said this 2000 years ago. Times and culture were very different back then.
Marriage is 50/50, 100/100.

I think it’s time to dismiss this saying, especially since today it is so much like Islam - the submissive woman.

The fact that the Magisterium is all male is another point. I know that in order to be part of the Magisterium one must be a priest. But where in the Bible or Tradition is it supported. The Church is made up of male and female, as is the rest of the world. Therefore, it’s time to open the Magisterium up to women… I do not see why the Magisterium can not be lay people. There are many power-hungry, egotistical men in the Magisterium - and there are many very wise, holy, knowledgeable lay people. The early church had women in high places.

Ecumenical Council II was supposed to open up the doors of Rome to the lay people and become more transparent. It has gone back on its promises and become even more secret.

I love my faith, but that doesn’t mean I have to close my eyes to the realities of the living Church today.

I still have a problem with the way the church has handled the pedophile problem. How can and how could bishops, cardinals allow priests and religious who did such a terrible deed continue … These sexual predators of children should have been handed over to the police just like anyone else.

I don’t know if letting priests marry would solve the problem. But priests do have stress and depression etc. just like the rest of us. Why can’t they have human comfort? I still haven’t resolved this issue and the pedophile problem to my own satisfaction. I don’t know what I want from the Church.

 

[happymommy]

Christ said this 2000 years ago. Times and culture were very different back then.
Marriage is 50/50, 100/100.

I think it’s time to dismiss this saying, especially since today it is so much like Islam - the submissive woman.

The fact that the Magisterium is all male is another point. I know that in order to be part of the Magisterium one must be a priest. But where in the Bible or Tradition is it supported. The Church is made up of male and female, as is the rest of the world. Therefore, it’s time to open the Magisterium up to women… I do not see why the Magisterium can not be lay people. There are many power-hungry, egotistical men in the Magisterium - and there are many very wise, holy, knowledgeable lay people. The early church had women in high places.

Ecumenical Council II was supposed to open up the doors of Rome to the lay people and become more transparent. It has gone back on its promises and become even more secret.

I love my faith, but that doesn’t mean I have to close my eyes to the realities of the living Church today.

I still have a problem with the way the church has handled the pedophile problem. How can and how could bishops, cardinals allow priests and religious who did such a terrible deed continue … These sexual predators of children should have been handed over to the police just like anyone else.

I don’t know if letting priests marry would solve the problem. But priests do have stress and depression etc. just like the rest of us. Why can’t they have human comfort? I still haven’t resolved this issue and the pedophile problem to my own satisfaction. I don’t know what I want from the Church.

Being a submissive Christian wife is nothing like Islam, where the women can’t speak or go out on their own, there are no beatings. I think people see “submissive” and don’t really understand what that means.
My husband is the head of the house. BUT, he loves me as Christ has taught, 2000 years ago or not, it’s still valid in a good Christian marriage!
Look at it this way: Our family is a company…we create children for the glory of God, and I must say we produce some beauties Now, with every successful company, someone has to be the head, the “boss”. That’s my hubby!! He makes sure the money is coming in, decides what is the best way to care for our product so it can be helpful to the world. Every president of a company needs a good right hand man, or in our case woman!! That’s me! I sit with the CEO and we plan which direction we want this great company of ours to go. He keeps working, I see that it happens I get the job done with our little products!! Now, the little ones have jobs too. They have to respect their parents, don’t always have to like us, but they have to always respect us! Our family is based on love and respect! When you do things out of love, it doesn’t seem like work! That’s why this little company of ours runs so great! I don’t feel submissive to my husband, the things I do, I do because I love him so very much! I feel blessed to be given such an awesome man! Being a stay at home mom, and now homeschooling mom, doesn’t always pay that great…the benefits are wonderful and I get to sleep with my boss

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Christ said this 2000 years ago. Times and culture were very different back then.
Marriage is 50/50, 100/100.

I think it’s time to dismiss this saying, especially since today it is so much like Islam - the submissive woman.

The fact that the Magisterium is all male is another point. I know that in order to be part of the Magisterium one must be a priest. But where in the Bible or Tradition is it supported. The Church is made up of male and female, as is the rest of the world. Therefore, it’s time to open the Magisterium up to women… I do not see why the Magisterium can not be lay people. There are many power-hungry, egotistical men in the Magisterium - and there are many very wise, holy, knowledgeable lay people. The early church had women in high places.

Ecumenical Council II was supposed to open up the doors of Rome to the lay people and become more transparent. It has gone back on its promises and become even more secret.

I love my faith, but that doesn’t mean I have to close my eyes to the realities of the living Church today.

I still have a problem with the way the church has handled the pedophile problem. How can and how could bishops, cardinals allow priests and religious who did such a terrible deed continue … These sexual predators of children should have been handed over to the police just like anyone else.

I don’t know if letting priests marry would solve the problem. But priests do have stress and depression etc. just like the rest of us. Why can’t they have human comfort? I still haven’t resolved this issue and the pedophile problem to my own satisfaction. I don’t know what I want from the Church.

So Christ said something 2000 years ago, therefore we no longer have to agree because we are living in ‘modern times?’

He is the Word Eternal. He cannot lie, cannot mislead.

I am not defending pedophiles, but do you realize the actual number of accused priests is minuscule? And that there was a concerted effort many decades ago to seed homosexual predators into the priesthood? They succeeded.

And it is not to YOUR satisfaction that this issue must be resolved, but to God’s.

The Devil has been busy of late, but I do not take kindly to having his lies passed along by members of Christ’s own Body. Nor do I take kindly to any sort of man-bashing.

 

[severus68]

Good post, adopted heir.

Once again this proves that Christians who have a problem with Ephesians 5 don’t have a correct understanding of what submission is. It has nothing to do with being weak or strong. If you had the correct understanding, you wouldn’t be able to have a problem with it because it just makes so much sense! My suggestion is go back and read through the entire thread, including the link buffalo posted on page 1.

God bless!

Thank you for your suggestion ac claire. I have in fact read and reread Ephesians. I do not think it necessary to reread whatever everyone has said. It may well be that some women who wish to submitt are strong women and I apologise to such women for implying or saying otherwise. However adopted heir’s description of the strong sumissve wife is in my opinion a contradiction in terms.

God blessings and peace on you too.

Adopted heir, a woman can choose to be a stay at home mum and that would please God too. That would be her choce too. She does not have to be a submissve stay at home mum. Doesn’t her husband not have to honour and help her? What if the wife works?

I have to ask of both of you, what about the gifts God has given you. Are’nt you obliged to use them well. Saying that, you do of course have the free will to submit to your husbands if you want to.

Peace.

 

[JaneGrey]

The Devil has been busy of late, but I do not take kindly to having his lies passed along by members of Christ’s own Body. Nor do I take kindly to any sort of man-bashing.

I ll be nice and just pretend that you were being sarcastic with the above. There is no Devil at work here and no one is passing on lies. Christ never explicitly said himself that women are to submit to men.

 

[adopted_heir]

Thank you for your suggestion ac claire. I have in fact read and reread Ephesians. I do not think it necessary to reread whatever everyone has said. It may well be that some women who wish to submitt are strong women and I apologise to such women for implying or saying otherwise. However adopted heir’s description of the strong sumissve wife is in my opinion a contradiction in terms.

God blessings and peace on you too.

Adopted heir, a woman can choose to be a stay at home mum and that would please God too. That would be her choce too. She does not have to be a submissve stay at home mum. Doesn’t her husband not have to honour and help her? What if the wife works?

I have to ask of both of you, what about the gifts God has given you. Are’nt you obliged to use them well. Saying that, you do of course have the free will to submit to your husbands if you want to.

Peace.

No, she doesn’t have to be submissive, but it sure helps. What part of my description was contradictory, if I may? I speak from experience there; I am submissive to my husband, and I’m not a weenie or a doormat. I consider myself lucky to be a stay-at-home mom. I know not all women would choose that, nor do all women have the choice to begin with, but luckily we can stretch our finances so I can stay with my kids and not send them to prison every day. As far as the gifts God has given me, their names are Benny and Cameron (and Cameron Daddy), they are my priorities after seeing that my husband’s needs are fulfilled. A married woman looks to things of the world, how to please her husband. Then her children, then her home, then, if time allows, using her other talents and skills to help others. I write; but while he’s at work and the kids are napping, and there aren’t any chores that need to be done. I would paint more often if I had the time, but things like that can wait till they’re a little older and can entertain themselves. I don’t feel I’m wasting my talents or gifts, but prioritizing them so I don’t waste my children or my marriage.

If the wife works, she is still in charge of making sure her husband comes home to a clean, happy home, even if that means restructuring her time and cutting out garbage like watching two hours of TV every night or going to the ladies’ groups.

I submit to my husband because he is my hero, my leader, my champion. He makes the decisions because I trust him, right or wrong, and he knows that. It makes him a better man and me a better wife. You can ask him the things I’ve done that show I’m not a doormat, even though I am submissive.

I would like to know how I was contradictory.

 

[severus68]

No, she doesn’t have to be submissive, but it sure helps. What part of my description was contradictory, if I may? I speak from experience there; I am submissive to my husband, and I’m not a weenie or a doormat. I consider myself lucky to be a stay-at-home mom. I know not all women would choose that, nor do all women have the choice to begin with, but luckily we can stretch our finances so I can stay with my kids and not send them to prison every day. As far as the gifts God has given me, their names are Benny and Cameron (and Cameron Daddy), they are my priorities after seeing that my husband’s needs are fulfilled. A married woman looks to things of the world, how to please her husband. Then her children, then her home, then, if time allows, using her other talents and skills to help others. I write; but while he’s at work and the kids are napping, and there aren’t any chores that need to be done. I would paint more often if I had the time, but things like that can wait till they’re a little older and can entertain themselves. I don’t feel I’m wasting my talents or gifts, but prioritizing them so I don’t waste my children or my marriage.

If the wife works, she is still in charge of making sure her husband comes home to a clean, happy home, even if that means restructuring her time and cutting out garbage like watching two hours of TV every night or going to the ladies’ groups.

I submit to my husband because he is my hero, my leader, my champion. He makes the decisions because I trust him, right or wrong, and he knows that. It makes him a better man and me a better wife. You can ask him the things I’ve done that show I’m not a doormat, even though I am submissive.

I would like to know how I was contradictory.

Of course you may. In your description, where are the needs of the wife. Your wife may be strong physically, she has to be with all she has to do but she can’t voice her feelings or have her say unless her husband permits her to. I have to say that your wife seems like the newest Stepford wife.

You do have the right to live the way you do and to say what you say. I have to say that Christ does not demand that wives live the way you say they should.

 

[whatevergirl]

Christ said this 2000 years ago. Times and culture were very different back then.
Marriage is 50/50, 100/100.

I think it’s time to dismiss this saying, especially since today it is so much like Islam - the submissive woman.

The fact that the Magisterium is all male is another point. I know that in order to be part of the Magisterium one must be a priest. But where in the Bible or Tradition is it supported. The Church is made up of male and female, as is the rest of the world. Therefore, it’s time to open the Magisterium up to women… I do not see why the Magisterium can not be lay people. There are many power-hungry, egotistical men in the Magisterium - and there are many very wise, holy, knowledgeable lay people. The early church had women in high places.

Ecumenical Council II was supposed to open up the doors of Rome to the lay people and become more transparent. It has gone back on its promises and become even more secret.

I love my faith, but that doesn’t mean I have to close my eyes to the realities of the living Church today.

I still have a problem with the way the church has handled the pedophile problem. How can and how could bishops, cardinals allow priests and religious who did such a terrible deed continue … These sexual predators of children should have been handed over to the police just like anyone else.

I don’t know if letting priests marry would solve the problem. But priests do have stress and depression etc. just like the rest of us. Why can’t they have human comfort? I still haven’t resolved this issue and the pedophile problem to my own satisfaction. I don’t know what I want from the Church.

You know, a different way of looking at this is that Jesus could have really chosen 6 women, 6 men to be His Disciples, when we stop to think about it. He wasn’t concerned with political posturing, and often, He did things that shocked the Pharisees, and common people. He healed on the Sabbath, and wasn’t concerned with public opinion. I thought about this recently, Jesus, if He so chose to, could have EASILY chosen 6 women, 6 men as Disciples, but He chose 12 men. The more and more I think about it–I don’t think He did this because He was trying to adhere to the culture of that time period. He is JESUS. He is Divine. He is not concerned with appearances, and He was quite a ‘revolutionary.’ So…to me…while I am a very strong and independent woman, I do not feel ‘slighted,’ for lack of a better word, that all men make up our ordained clergy. If this is what Jesus wanted…who am I to question that?

Now, Jesus did walk up to women OFTEN as we read in Scripture, evangelizing to them…etc. He most certainly thought/thinks that women are equal to men in dignity, but He chose men to be priests, etc. I think that there are many roles for women, but being a priest doesn’t seem to be what Jesus wanted. And, if you think about it logically, even–He could have chosen women, at least ONE to be a Disciple. But, He did not. So, that is a tradition that we need to respect and uphold.

Hope that presents a different perspective, that might help?*

 

[agapewolf]

Thank you for your suggestion ac claire. I have in fact read and reread Ephesians. I do not think it necessary to reread whatever everyone has said. It may well be that some women who wish to submitt are strong women and I apologise to such women for implying or saying otherwise. However adopted heir’s description of the strong sumissve wife is in my opinion a contradiction in terms.

God blessings and peace on you too.

Adopted heir, a woman can choose to be a stay at home mum and that would please God too. That would be her choce too. She does not have to be a submissve stay at home mum. Doesn’t her husband not have to honour and help her? What if the wife works?

I have to ask of both of you, what about the gifts God has given you. Are’nt you obliged to use them well. Saying that, you do of course have the free will to submit to your husbands if you want to.

Peace.

Please read the whole thread. If you don’t understand how a strong woman can be submissive, you do not understand what “submissive” means. It is in no way a contradiction in terms, in fact, the only way a wife could be trully and submissive in a holy way, the way God intended, is to be strong.

Submissive means “UNDER THE MISSION OF”. Please read my past posts.

 

[severus68]

Please read the whole thread. If you don’t understand how a strong woman can be submissive, you do not understand what “submissive” means. It is in no way a contradiction in terms, in fact, the only way a wife could be trully and submissive in a holy way, the way God intended, is to be strong.

Submissive means “UNDER THE MISSION OF”. Please read my past posts.

My immediate response was to answer “Sure I don’t”, sarcastically. I will say instead that telling someone he/she does not understand basics like the meaning of “submissive” to dimiss him/her does not make you right.

 

[whatevergirl]

No, she doesn’t have to be submissive, but it sure helps. What part of my description was contradictory, if I may? I speak from experience there; I am submissive to my husband, and I’m not a weenie or a doormat. I consider myself lucky to be a stay-at-home mom. I know not all women would choose that, nor do all women have the choice to begin with, but luckily we can stretch our finances so I can stay with my kids and not send them to prison every day. As far as the gifts God has given me, their names are Benny and Cameron (and Cameron Daddy), they are my priorities after seeing that my husband’s needs are fulfilled. A married woman looks to things of the world, how to please her husband. Then her children, then her home, then, if time allows, using her other talents and skills to help others. I write; but while he’s at work and the kids are napping, and there aren’t any chores that need to be done. I would paint more often if I had the time, but things like that can wait till they’re a little older and can entertain themselves. I don’t feel I’m wasting my talents or gifts, but prioritizing them so I don’t waste my children or my marriage.

**If the wife works, she is still in charge of making sure her husband comes home to a clean, happy home, even if that means restructuring her time and cutting out garbage like watching two hours of TV every night or going to the ladies’ groups. **

I submit to my husband because he is my hero, my leader, my champion. He makes the decisions because I trust him, right or wrong, and he knows that. It makes him a better man and me a better wife. You can ask him the things I’ve done that show I’m not a doormat, even though I am submissive.

I would like to know how I was contradictory.

This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it…but nowhere is this written as law in order to be a loving, Catholic wife. This is your opinion. My husband is the head of household, and we both work fulltime…he would never expect me to be his maid when I get home. We TOGETHER clean, take care of the kids, bills, etc…but he is still my hero, champion, and rock. I don’t think that a woman working outside of the home demeans the man, nor demeans her role as a loving mother and wife. The rest of your post, I agree with. And there’s nothing wrong with belonging to a women’s group at church, btw.

My husband also married me knowing I’m not all that great with cleaning…I did it when I was a SAHM, but I wasn’t a June Cleaver. And alas, my husband still thinks I’m an awesome wife. My husband and I take care of each other. It has worked for nearly 18 years (with a separation in between) and so, I think what works for us, is that I submit to him, and he loves me as Christ loved His Church. It’s not perfect, but we are trying to grow in holiness, as God wants.

As a wife and mother, my family comes first. Always has, always will. It’s important not to project how we live our personal lives onto others…*