HIV, AIDS cases rise among U.S. gay, bisexual men

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Island Oak:
I am in full agreement with pushing the morals/abstinence approach which is very applicable and teachable in the US, with a literate, well-educated populace surrounded by a culture based on Judeo-Christian ethics.

Conversely, try this sure-fire approach with any of the thousands of 12-14-16 year old African females (uneducated, w/no contact with education in health care) betrothed to men twice their age who either trade/travel over long distances or work in industry (mine, factory, refinery, port) hundreds of miles from home; who encounter and enjoy the company of many other women regularly, AND has never learned any moral prohibition against sex outside of marriage. Then perhaps suggest to her that she buck every social custom she does know and refuse her husband relations unless he is tested for AIDS and then insist that he be faithful to her. What happens when he ignores this great logic and infects her and exposes his future children to infection. Not so intelligence bustingly-simple after all. Morals are great and effective if taught, reinforced by the community/culture AND practiced by all parties.
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Certainly this is a huge challenge but I understand Nigeria has had success with education and an abstinance/monogamy program.
In all fairness, the thread is focused on the U.S. where we DO have some control. I suspect Africa is a place where AIDS education will be much more difficult. I know the US has committed millions of dollars to this project and I only hope that it has impact.

Lisa N
 
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gilliam:
During a year of typical condom use, 14 out of 100 women will become pregnant. Still want to rely on condems preventing AIDS?
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Who the heck are you arguing with and where has anyone here promoted the use of condoms as a sure-fire solution?!?!
 
Island Oak:
Who the heck are you arguing with and where has anyone here promoted the use of condoms as a sure-fire solution?!?!
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why so hot?
 
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gilliam:
During a year of typical condom use, 14 out of 100 women will become pregnant. Still want to rely on condems preventing AIDS?
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Absolutely not. Gilliam, I was not endorsing condom use. Abstinence is the only way to get a grip on this.

I was just agreeing with Island Oak that the culture there is hard to “crack” so to speak.
 
not hot, just confused. Don’t want to be thrown into the condom camp without my consent.
 
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jlw:
Absolutely not. Gilliam, I was not endorsing condom use. Abstinence is the only way to get a grip on this.

I was just agreeing with Island Oak that the culture there is hard to “crack” so to speak.
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Yes, it is difficult. But it is also difficult to even get good numbers out of condom use over there as well, since they don’t utilize and store them as the manufacturer recommends.
 
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jlw:
My wife’s best friend recently came back from Africa after a stint with the Peace Corps.

Sad, but true. Island Oak has it right. She reports pretty much the same.
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I suspect there might be more success with African countries where there are strong Christian populations and Christian missions. I do know the Methodists whose mission was in Kenya, did try to educate their students on STDs. They reported a HUGE population of orphans due to AIDS even though there are both secular and religious educational programs. But they were trying to help the upcoming generations to avoid their parents’ fate.

In countries where there are more Muslims and tribal religions, it’s going to be more difficult because of the cultural norms of promiscuity and polygymy. I read a book about a volunteer (Peace Corps ?) who explained how AIDS spread in the small and relatively isolated Muslim village she lived in. She said she noticed a child that didn’t seem to thrive. He was sickly from early on although she didn’t recognize the symptoms at the time, he was born with AIDS and died shortly afterward. Turns out that a man died and his brother was obligated by culture and religion to marry his wives. Further the brother was obligated to cosummate the marriages. The man had died of AIDS and his wives were infected. The brother had sexual relations with his infected wives, contracted AIDS and then spread it to the uninfected wives who then spread it to the children. Just expand this scenario exponentially and it’s easy to understand how difficult it will be to fight AIDS in these populations.

Lisa N
 
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gilliam:
Yes, it is difficult. But it is also difficult to even get good numbers out of condom use over there as well, since they don’t utilize and store them as the manufacturer recommends.
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Well, duh. You’re right.

Hey, how they store condoms is the least of their worries!! How about making sure people stop bathing or drinking from the same water source they defecate in?? Basic things like washing their hands??

I means, that goes waaaay beyond any race/gender/class issues doesn’t it!!???
 
Lisa N:
I suspect there might be more success with African countries where there are strong Christian populations and Christian missions. I do know the Methodists whose mission was in Kenya, did try to educate their students on STDs. They reported a HUGE population of orphans due to AIDS even though there are both secular and religious educational programs. But they were trying to help the upcoming generations to avoid their parents’ fate.

In countries where there are more Muslims and tribal religions, it’s going to be more difficult because of the cultural norms of promiscuity and polygymy. I read a book about a volunteer (Peace Corps ?) who explained how AIDS spread in the small and relatively isolated Muslim village she lived in. She said she noticed a child that didn’t seem to thrive. He was sickly from early on although she didn’t recognize the symptoms at the time, he was born with AIDS and died shortly afterward. Turns out that a man died and his brother was obligated by culture and religion to marry his wives. Further the brother was obligated to cosummate the marriages. The man had died of AIDS and his wives were infected. The brother had sexual relations with his infected wives, contracted AIDS and then spread it to the uninfected wives who then spread it to the children. Just expand this scenario exponentially and it’s easy to understand how difficult it will be to fight AIDS in these populations.

Lisa N
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Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I think instead of putting the burden on the poor and uneducated the real test of our beliefs will be our willingness to educate ourselves about the cultural impediments that perpetuate this disease and to provide health education along with Christian witness and fellowship to these people.
 
Island Oak:
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I think instead of putting the burden on the poor and uneducated the real test of our beliefs will be our willingness to educate ourselves about the cultural impediments that perpetuate this disease and to provide health education along with Christian witness and fellowship to these people.
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Instead??? This isn’t an either/or argument, is it?

The burden on the poor and uneducated will not ever stop once they are “educated”. Knowledge and Faith produces new responsibilities. The burden of fighting our fallen nature may be “easier” with a knowledge of it, but it’s still heavy.

Did I articulate that very well??
 
Yes…and you’re right. The burden and challenge of living a moral, chaste life doesn’t end once you have the facts. My point was simply how can we expect people to start down the right path when they’ve never been given the roadmap. I just think we have some obligation to help our less fortunate brothers and sisters, not merely condemn their behavior and wash our hands of their fate. I felt there were a few posts in this thread that rather uncharitably conveyed that tone.
 
Island Oak:
Yes…and you’re right. The burden and challenge of living a moral, chaste life doesn’t end once you have the facts. My point was simply how can we expect people to start down the right path when they’ve never been given the roadmap. I just think we have some obligation to help our less fortunate brothers and sisters, not merely condemn their behavior and wash our hands of their fate. I felt there were a few posts in this thread that rather uncharitably conveyed that tone.
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In all fairness, I didn’t see that anyone was slamming the door in the face of the poor on a cold bleak night.

But, the truth is, we have been giving the rest of the world the roadmap to success for YEARS. And it’s either foreign governments that won’t allow change, or social cultures that won’t change.

This will anger liberals, but the path the greatest economic and social success is through Western representative government with laws based Judeo-Christian values.
 
Lisa N:
That you have posed questions do not compel any of us to answer them, particularly having dealt with you in the past. You never address the answers but simply blow them off with dismissive comments and then move on to the next question. So if someone chooses to respond, that’s fine but no one is compelled to do so.

Lisa N
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You are free from the obligation to answer any hard questions. Go in peace.
 
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gilliam:
During a year of typical condom use, 14 out of 100 women will become pregnant. Still want to rely on condems preventing AIDS?
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Eighty six women might be glad they did.
 
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Zoot:
Eighty six women might be glad they did.
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Yeah, I want my daughter to engage in risky behavior if she has just an 85% chance of survival. :nope:

I don’t need a mathamatics degree from MIT to see that 100% chance of survival and a little denial of pleasure is better than 85% and 30 minutes of irresponsible fun.
 
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jlw:
Yeah, I want my daughter to engage in risky behavior if she has just an 85% chance of survival. :nope:

I don’t need a mathamatics degree from MIT to see that 100% chance of survival and a little denial of pleasure is better than 85% and 30 minutes of irresponsible fun.
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I suspect she will be making that decision herself. The more she knows, the better her decision will be.

I’d say sex education classes in school are a good place to learn.
 
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Zoot:
I suspect she will be making that decision herself. The more she knows, the better her decision will be.

I’d say sex education classes in school are a good place to learn.
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You don’t have a daughter I imagine???
 
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jlw:
You don’t have a daughter I imagine???
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All women are daughters, and they usually make the decision themselves in this country.

Sex education will help them make an informed decision. I’d also recommend probability theory in math class.
 
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