Jehovah's witnesses still dont have an accurate translation?

[BibleSteve]

Which bible did the WTBTS begin with? Why isn’t that version good enough? Didn’t Russell know what he was doing? Of course, he did. So…

The early Bible Students, and the later Jehovah’s Witnesses have used multiple translations. The NWT didn’t come into existance until the 1950’s.

Each of the previous translations had strengths and weaknesses. You can read Jason Debuhn’s book for more information on the bias that crept into the standard translations.

 

[BibleSteve]

Hellisreal,

You asked:

 "However, dedicating 8-12 hours a day for 4, 6, 8 years as a    University student studying a secular topic is considered commendable."       "Its not?"

Here was my point:

The average person in the US watches 4.5 hours of TV each day and that’s considered to be “normal”

A University student spends 8-12 hours a day going to class and studing for 4, 6, 8, 12 years that is considered “commendable”.

Why should a regular old “lay person” who chooses to focus 8 hours a day for 1 year learning the real message from the Bible be called “fanatical”?

Doesn’t that show the lack of value some people place on the Bible and the importance they place on secular over spiritual?

 

[BibleSteve]

God’s view of daily Bible reading:

(Joshua 1:8) This book of the law should not depart from your mouth, and you must in an undertone read in it day and night, in order that you may take care to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way successful and then you will act wisely.

(Psalm 1:1-2) Happy is the man that has not walked in the counsel of the wicked ones, And in the way of sinners has not stood, And in the seat of ridiculers has not sat. 2But his delight is in the law of YHWH, And in his law he reads in an undertone day and night.

 

[po18guy]

The “faithful” used what was available in their day. At the time of Jesus, prior to the “New Testament” writings, the faith had the Hebrew scrolls (i.e. Old Testament). When the “New Testament” letters were written, these were distributed to the congregations and read to/by the faithful.

W’re still missing 30-50 years-those before the Gospels were written.

 

[Hellisreal]

In a way yes, in another way, no.

Sorry to leave it there now like this Steve, but this and the other things will be addressed tomorrow, Okay?

Again, you being brave enough to come out and tell us what you do believe in, is commendable, even if we are in different places, I can see this.

I hope you understand what I mean.

Hellisreal,

You asked:

 "However, dedicating 8-12 hours a day for 4, 6, 8 years as a    University student studying a secular topic is considered commendable."       "Its not?"

Here was my point:

The average person in the US watches 4.5 hours of TV each day and that’s considered to be “normal”

A University student spends 8-12 hours a day going to class and studing for 4, 6, 8, 12 years that is considered “commendable”.

Why should a regular old “lay person” who chooses to focus 8 hours a day for 1 year learning the real message from the Bible be called “fanatical”?

Doesn’t that show the lack of value some people place on the Bible and the importance they place on secular over spiritual?

 

[po18guy]

The early Bible Students, and the later Jehovah’s Witnesses have used multiple translations. The NWT didn’t come into existance until the 1950’s.

Each of the previous translations had strengths and weaknesses. You can read Jason Debuhn’s book for more information on the bias that crept into the standard translations.

This includes Debuhn’s bias, too?

 

[BibleSteve]

W’re still missing 30-50 years-those before the Gospels were written.

I’m sure some of these dates could be debated… however, during the years after Jesus death, his disciples had access to the Hebrew Scriptures, and the ever growing list of Christian scriptures:

41 Matthew

50 1Thessalonians
51 2 Thessalonians
50-52 Galatians
55 1 Corinthians
55 2 Corinthians
56 Romans
56-58 Luke

60-65 Mark
61 Acts
60-61 Ephesians
60-61 Philippians
60-61 Colossians
61-64 1 Timothy
65 2 Timothy
61-64 Titus
60-61 Philemon
61 Hebrews
62 James
62-64 1 Peter
64 2 Peter
65 Jude

96 Revelation
98 1 John
98 2 John
98 3 John
98 CE John

 

[po18guy]

I’m sure some of these dates could be debated… however, during the years after Jesus death, his disciples had access to the Hebrew Scriptures, and the ever growing list of Christian scriptures:

What about those who were illiterate, and deaf? So, you are saved by the book?

 

[BibleSteve]

This includes Debuhn’s bias, too?

You’ll have to read it yourself to decide.

It’s an excellent book that lays out the original greek and then the English translation of 9 different bibles. Then he goes through each version systematically to show the strengths and weaknesses of each. He specifically shows how each Bible adds based on their own preconcieved ideas about what the text is “trying” to say.

There’s currently 31 comments from people who’ve read the book here at Amazon: tinyurl.com/ysopjt

Why not scan through the comments to get an idea for yourself?

It’s an excellent reference book…

 

[BibleSteve]

BibleSteve;2750737:

I’m sure some of these dates could be debated… however, during the years after Jesus death, his disciples had access to the Hebrew Scriptures, and the ever growing list of Christian scriptures:

What about those who were illiterate, and deaf? So, you are saved by the book?

Salvation is determined by Jesus and YHWH. Given the story of the widow contributing the 2 small coins and Jesus favorable comments, it seems they are looking to see how much a person applies themself given their abilities.

It’s interesting to get their view here:

(2 Timothy 3:14-17) You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from what persons you learned them 15*and that *from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through the faith in connection with Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture **is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

It seems to me that YHWH places a high value on having people read the Bible.

 

[BibleSteve]

This includes Debuhn’s bias, too?

I was rereading the comments on Amazon about his book… these comments seemed appropriate for your queston:

"Jason David BeDuhn shows an exceptional unbiased approach in comparing Bible translations to the oldest Koine Greek manuscripts. In spite of years of effort by translators to establish a “core truth” not found in the scriptures BeDuhn brushes aside their prejudice and sticks to the true meaning of the original autographs. Many theologians and so called scholars will not like BeDuhn’s candid approach to revealing a blatant attempt by many translators to hide Bible truth from the Bible reading public. I applauded his honest and unbiased approach. "

"…This book compares a number of translations and gives a lay person the ability to compare thru a scholar’s criteria. Impressive is the neutrality of this work towards any religious group. This is merely the abc’s of translation and the results of comparative study are stand alone. Excellent independant work. "

Check out the other comments here: tinyurl.com/ysopjt

 

[po18guy]

It seems to me that YHWH places a high value on having people read the Bible.

Steve, please check the poll on bible ownership and readership on the forum. You just might be surprised. Ignorance of scripture is indeed ignorance of Christ. But, John 21.25 clearly says that the bible is a tiny fraction of the life of Jesus. What else of Christ does your church have? Catholics have His Body and Blood (John 6 and 1 Corinthians 11) as spiritual food and drink. Jesus lost disciples over His teaching on His Body and Blood. It’s that important. Catholics also have a priesthood that traces directly back to the twelve. Save the Eastern Orthodox, no other church has that. That is why we are here and it is why you are here.

The peace of Christ be with you…

 

[BibleSteve]

Steve, please check the poll on bible ownership and readership on the forum. You just might be surprised. Ignorance of scripture is indeed ignorance of Christ…

We had this conversation a few months back. I believe various polls indicate that 90-95% of people who identify themselves as Christian haven’t read the entire Bible once.

Sad really given the high value YHWH places on personal Bible reading:

(2 Timothy 3:14-17) You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from what persons you learned them 15and that from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through the faith in connection with Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17*that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

 

[Hellisreal]

We had this conversation a few months back. I believe various polls indicate that 90-95% of people who identify themselves as Christian haven’t read the entire Bible once.

Sad really given the high value YHWH places on personal Bible reading:

(2 Timothy 3:14-17) You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from what persons you learned them 15and that from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through the faith in connection with Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17*that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

Can you tell me what a good work is Bible Steve?

 

[po18guy]

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching…completely equipped for every good work.

Beneficial, yes. But we are saved through grace, not the written word. Instruction in and from the written word is efficacious in performing the corporal works of mercy. And, mercy pleases Christ more than sacrifice. (Matthew 9:13, 12:7). The longer you remain with us, the more stereotype falls away (yours and ours).

Christ’s peace.

 

[Hellisreal]

Beneficial, yes. But we are saved through grace, not the written word. Instruction in and from the written word is efficacious in performing the corporal works of mercy. And, mercy pleases Christ more than sacrifice. (Matthew 9:13, 12:7). The longer you remain with us, the more stereotype falls away (yours and ours).

Christ’s peace.

 

[b_justb]

I was rereading the comments on Amazon about his book… these comments seemed appropriate for your queston:

"Jason David BeDuhn shows an exceptional unbiased approach in comparing Bible translations to the oldest Koine Greek manuscripts. In spite of years of effort by translators to establish a “core truth” not found in the scriptures BeDuhn brushes aside their prejudice and sticks to the true meaning of the original autographs. Many theologians and so called scholars will not like BeDuhn’s candid approach to revealing a blatant attempt by many translators to hide Bible truth from the Bible reading public. I applauded his honest and unbiased approach. "

"…This book compares a number of translations and gives a lay person the ability to compare thru a scholar’s criteria. Impressive is the neutrality of this work towards any religious group. This is merely the abc’s of translation and the results of comparative study are stand alone. Excellent independant work. "

Check out the other comments here: tinyurl.com/ysopjt

But DeBuhn is NOT a biblical scholar. This point was made way back here in post #27, which was of course ignored by you as you continue to spout DeBuhn because he agrees with you. But he is NOT a biblical scholar, so he is merely putting forth an opinion without any authority on the subject. But that doesn’t matter, you like what he says and he’s not a JW so you highlight what you like and totally ignore the obvious. He is not an authority to draw on for biblical exegetical work because he is NOT a biblical scholar.

For reference here is post 27:

Hi Steve, long time no see.

Since you are using Jason DeBuhn to support your point of argument based upon proof by authority, we must be assured of Mr. Debuhn’s authority to make the claims he makes for us to be convinced, correct? Let’s take a look at Mr. DeBuhn shall we?

BeDuhn received his Master of Arts in Theological Studies from Harvard Divinity School. This degree requires an intermediate level of competence in Greek. BeDuhn’s PhD from the University of Indiana is in Comparative Religious Studies, not in Biblical languages. He is not recognized in the scholarly community as an expert in Biblical Greek. |source|

BeDuhn attempted to defend the NWT to Catholic apologist John Pacheco. You’ll find their discussion of John 1:1 here.

BeDuhn’s argument is that John’s beliefs about God were not consistent with those professed in Deuteronomy. John is not “concerned” with the radical monotheistic commitment of Deuteronomy, BeDuhn suggests. He tells us that Paul does not “control” what John meant and vice versa. However, those who hold to the harmony of Scripture - as do Jehovah’s Witnesses - do not accept this necessary presupposition. Therefore both Trinitarians and Witnesses should reject his conclusions, for they are based on presuppositions with which we cannot agree. | This is the conclusion of Topic Studies Researchers. |

 

[po18guy]

Many theologians and so called scholars will not like BeDuhn’s candid approach to revealing a blatant attempt by many translators to hide Bible truth from the Bible reading public.

Pretty much standard conspiracy theory stuff here. Protestants and Catholics teaming up to fool…whom? In my youth, I was involved in such conspiracy-victim organizations. Their contant paranoic assertions I came to find wearying. Good, honest, hard-working Americans each one of them. But, as is discovered in the road that leads to hell, their intentions were none but the best.

It is suspicion such as this that peddles “the da Vinci Code” and our sponge-like brains soak it up. How easily we are mislead.

 

[juliamajor]

Pretty much standard conspiracy theory stuff here. Protestants and Catholics teaming up to fool…whom? In my youth, I was involved in such conspiracy-victim organizations. Their contant paranoic assertions I came to find wearying. Good, honest, hard-working Americans each one of them. But, as is discovered in the road that leads to hell, their intentions were none but the best.

It is suspicion such as this that peddles “the da Vinci Code” and our sponge-like brains soak it up. How easily we are mislead.

Just google" NWT accuracy" you’ll get all these JW sites that basically say the same thing almost word for word about this fraudulent translation. It’s really funny The Whole Watchtower org is so seriously devoid of any kind of sound theology and intelligence that they cannot even come up with decent propaganda. Stock answers from Bethel

 

[BibleSteve]

“You can’t listen to him, he’s not a scholar!”

“He doesn’t even have a degree from the best school!”

“Obviously, he wrong, because his views conflict with what our religion has taught for over a thousand years!”

“Our faith is based on over a thousand years of tradition, with priests, and succession!”

Catholics complaining about JW’s or Jason Debuhn’s book?

No, 1st century Jews complaining about Jesus, his apostles, and early disciples…

(Matthew 11:25) At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.

(Acts 4:13) Now when they beheld the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were men unlettered and ordinary, they got to wondering. And they began to recognize about them that they used to be with Jesus;

(Matthew 13:54-56) And after coming into his home territory he began to teach them in their synagogue, so that they were astounded and said: “Where did this man get this wisdom and these powerful works? 55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56*And his sisters, are they not all with us? Where, then, did this man get all these things?”