Mary, Joseph, and Jesus put in a Detention Cage

[pnewton]

Start with the issue that is at hand. President Trump stated he was only following the Democrats law and that they could change it if they wanted. He had previously said he would sign any bill, back when he was playing at being compassionate, then said he would only sign a bill that had his wall funding, playing at being the blackmailer.

So he had these kids taken, holds them, says he is willing to let them go for money. Doesn’t this sound like what the Mexican gangs south of the border do?

President Trump has no concept of personal responsibility, that is taking his office as where the buck stops. Instead, he excels at blame, distraction, and re-direction, as do his loyal subjects. There cannot be one thread without posts that do the same, “But what about…?”

 

[Cathoholic]

JonNC . . .

I think the Flores decision was Trump’s fault.

Yep. Waaay back in 1997 and it is STILL Trump’s fault wouldn’t you agree jagged?

Sore foot? Blame “Trump”.

Flat tire? Why “Trump” of course!

Acne? Trump is clearly the culprit.

 

[dvdjs]

I know it’s a mess because of Trump’s policies,

We do have a mess at the moment, and the proximate cause of the mess is the policy change of Trump.
Iti s possible to deflect in many many way from this acute problem, but how on earth does this help those who are bitterly suffering at our hands?

 

[Cathoholic]

pnewton . . . .

He had previously said he would sign any bill, back when he was playing at being compassionate, then said he would only sign a bill that had his wall funding, playing at being the blackmailer.

And he got a bill in neither situation. From Democrats or Republicans.

Democrats don’t want to bring any substantial bill to Congress because their principles on immigration are bad and the public will jettison them from office if they actually vote for things like open borders, or giving welfare to foreign countries to KEEP their own “immigrants” (like Europe is trying now).

These immigration “solutions” are so distorted that the Republicans would put it up for a vote, and hold them accountable in the upcoming election and they know it.

THAT’S WHY you won’t get any bills.

Some of the Republicans think like the Democrats too on this favoring amnesty and starting this whole cycle of this immoral incentivization of illegal immigration all over again.

Those weak Republicans want amnesty just like all the Democrats in Congress do (but they don’t readily admit it with their words).

Cheap labor, cheap votes, pressure from union bosses about dwindling school populations (thus dwindling teachers thus dwindling dues) and other things.

USE the poor immigrant$.

Government demographers along with politicians concerned about the vacuum in Social Security payers and the influx of recipient imbalance that they cannot discuss publicly.

Enormous pressure from Planned Parenthood and others to KEEP our culture an abortion and contraception culture in spite of the labor vacuum, looming Social Security crisis, and population dearth.

And the best you guys can come up with? Amnesty. And shamelessly using the Holy Family as political props.

 

[pnewton]

And shamelessly using the Holy Family as political props.

You are half right. I have no shame in the situation, but this particular issue is a moral one, not a political one, according to the bishops in the United States and the Holy Father.

 

[Cathoholic]

pnewton . . .

You are half right. I have no shame in the situation, but this particular issue is a moral one, not a political one, according to the bishops in the United States and the Holy Father.

You are half right. I have no shame in the situation of fighting ILLEGAL immigration humanely.

But this particular issue of INCENTIVIZING illegal immigration is an immoral one, not a political one.

And it is being largely ignored by many liberals as the child rapes continue.

I’ll post it again pnewton.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/12/central-america-migrants-rape_n_5806972.html

I have not heard you and many others here even mention this non-mere-political problem of the wanton rape of the women and children on this perilous incentivized journey.

I am not saying you are indifferent to the suffering. You could probably link to several posts of yours right now where you have called for de-incentivizing illegal immigration and all the madness that comes with it.

I just haven’t seen them.

 

[Cathoholic]

pnewton (to me) . . .

You are half right… . . .according to the bishops in the United States and the Holy Father.

Actually it is YOU who are only half right.

The Popes have affirmed the licitness of borders.

You have probably pointed THAT OUT TOO (and could give me several of your links doing so immediately) and I just missed it.

But I’ll post it for you again.

Pope Says ‘Every Country Has the Right to Control its Borders’

Pope Francis said Friday that “every country has the right to control its borders,” especially where the risk of terrorism exists.

www.breitbart.com

'Every country has THE RIGHT to control its borders’ - says Pope

Pope Francis has waded into a sensitive political debate on nationalism saying “every country has the right to control its borders.”

www.express.co.uk

Pope Benedict XVI taught the same basic thing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/27/world/europe/27pope.html

 

[pnewton]

But this particular issue of INCENTIVIZING illegal immigration is an immoral one, not a political one.

I understand that Protestants allow each person to make their own determination based on their understanding of scripture what is moral and what is immoral. However, Catholics should be concerned if their own personal moral compass point south, when the authority that is the Body of Christ says it is north.

Again, the issue being protested is the housing of children en masse away from parents, not a protest against every immigration policy. So more diversions, false flags, and off-topic links should not be used as some sort of rebuttal against the Church. To the contrary, they should serve as evidence that the issue cannot be addressed head on and rebuffed.

 

[Cathoholic]

pnewton . . .

I understand that Protestants allow each person to make their own determination based on their understanding of scripture what is moral and what is immoral. However, Catholics should be concerned if their own personal moral compass point south, when the authority that is the Body of Christ says it is north.

The Bishops never call for open borders pnewton.

It is YOU not me that is picking and choosing doctrine here.

I affirm compassionate treatment of criminals, I affirm and welcome immigrants (not liiegal aliens), and I affirm the right of the Vatican and other countries to not have its border destroyed.

It is YOU who are serving up cafeteria style immigration acceptances.

Our Bishops never call for ANYTHING like the liberal ideas I often see put forth.

 

[pnewton]

The Bishops never call for open borders pnewton.

Straw man. Again. I am picking doctrines. Yes. it is called sticking to the topic. I am beginning to think you do not understand the purpose of the cage around baby Jesus, that is, the message being conveyed. It wasn’t “every liberal idea.”

For the record, I think the economic protectionism of American workers, as opposed to the market economy of labor is the liberal idea, and my view is the economic conservative one, as opposed to just a liberal, but nativist one. But labels mean so little when used without thought.

 

[Luke6_37]

Our Bishops never call for ANYTHING like the liberal ideas I often see put forth.

Maybe not exactly, but they are certainly NOT calling for what Trump has done. To the contrary, they have outright condemned it.

Even during the Obama administration, the Church leadership opposed the separation of families that was happening due to the broken immigration system.

cardinal sean o'malley immigration border mass

Catholic bishops traveled to United States border on Tuesday and offered communion to Mexicans through the border fence to shows Jesus' love knows no boundaries

time.com

Now Trump has made what was terrible absolutely horrific.

Catholics are obligated to stand with the Bishops in opposition to what is evil. Instead, it looks like to me is that you are trying to defend it.

One can always find moral solutions if we Begin by standing on common ground, and right now for Catholics that is to stand with the Bishops in condemnation of Trump’s zero tolerance policy that has led to the needless and traumatic persecution of a vulnerable population.

 

[Cathoholic]

But nobody is trying to say “Borders can block the love of Jesus Christ”.

Why not extend the love of Jesus by
helping de-incentivizing ILLEGAL immigration?

Luke6_37. We can walk together hand-in-hand proverbially on this issue.

 

[JonNC]

jagged:

I know it’s a mess because of Trump’s policies,

We do have a mess at the moment, and the proximate cause of the mess is the policy change of Trump.
Iti s possible to deflect in many many way from this acute problem, but how on earth does this help those who are bitterly suffering at our hands?

The proximate cause is foreign nationals illegally crossing our border, and the enabling of saidby the anti-sovereignty left.
The ironic part of your comment is they are suffering the least now, many of them, than any other time in their lives, yet they are “bitterly suffering “ because they crossed our border illegally.

 

[Cathoholic]

pnewton . . .

I am beginning to think you do not understand the purpose of the cage around baby Jesus . . .

Sure. I understand “the message” just fine and “the message” is a partial truth.

It is meant to dishonestly implicitly convey that this family detention of migrants has ONLY occurred under the Trump administration.

And people are willing to even go on Catholic forums and help propagate this partial truth.

And informed people are falling for these spoofs less and less.

So the frustration level of the dishonest people rises and pretty soon they are doing stuff like
pulling the hair of children while
pulling off
and stealing their MAGA caps
because their manipulation is working less and less.

Watch: Texas Mom Claims Son Attacked at Whataburger for MAGA Hat World News

Maxine must be very proud of her minions on this one. Keep up the good work Max. I hope she runs for president!

And they have lowered themselves to USING the Holy Family for a political prop for their secular humanist evangelization because they know Jesus is who the people they are attempting to manipulate love.

 

[dvdjs]

The proximate cause is foreign nationals illegally crossing our border,

That is a cause but it is not proximate.

The ironic part of your comment is they are suffering the least now, many of them, than any other time in their lives, yet they are “bitterly suffering “ because they crossed our border illegally.

What is the irony?

And what is your point?
If we were to undertake torture as a disincentive, would that be OK if it were less aggravated than what they were subjected to in their home country?

We have be accountable for what we are doing and to do what is right. It is insufficient just to be better than some one else.

 

[pnewton]

And people are willing to even go on Catholic forums and help propagate this partial truth.

And informed people are falling for these spoofs less and less.

So the frustration level of the dishonest people rises and pretty soon they are doing stuff like
pulling the hair of children while
pulling off
and stealing their MAGA caps
because their manipulation is working less and less.

Wow, you are all over the map.

 

[Luke6_37]

For the record, I think the economic protectionism of American workers, as opposed to the market economy of labor is the liberal idea, and my view is the economic conservative one, as opposed to just a liberal, but nativist one. But labels mean so little when used without thought.

There is so much confusion out there about how to interpret the principles of Catholic Social Teaching and put them into practice in public policy.

Personally, I refuse to accept the Faustian bargain of partisanship with either the Republican or Democratic party. My understanding of Catholic Social Teaching means that I must oppose certain policies that are endorsed by Trump-Republicans, and endorse certain policies that are opposed by Trump-Republicans. And the same goes for the Democrats.

I wish the Bishops would insist that parishes explain this better to their congregations. Now that the make-up of the Supreme Court is going to be the best that anti-abortion advocates could hope to have, there is no reason for Catholics to compromise their values on other social issues such as immigration, workers rights, and the environment.

However, that means siding with Democrates on these issues and I am afraid THAT is going to give many right-wing Catholics wiplash.

 

[JonNC]

That is a cause but it is not proximate.

proximate cause: In the law, a proximate cause is an event sufficiently related to an injury that the courts deem the event to be the cause of that injury.

What is more sufficiently related to the breaking of our immigration laws than a foreign national illegally crossing our border?

And what is your point?
If we were to undertake torture as a disincentive, would that be OK if it were less aggravated than what they were subjected to in their home country?

My pointy is the current policy follows the law and court decisions. The people involved are extremely well cared for. The child are safer and better cared for than anytime in their lives. To refer to that as “bitterly suffering” is entirely inaccurate.

 

[dvdjs]

more sufficiently related

proximate: (especially of a cause of something) closest in relationship; immediate.

The people involved are extremely well cared for. The child are safer and better cared for than anytime in their lives. To refer to that as “bitterly suffering” is entirely inaccurate.

You apparently are no following the problems with family separation. Sad.

 

[Luke6_37]

But nobody is trying to say “Borders can block the love if Jesus Christ”.

Why not extend the love of Jesus by
helping de-incentivizing ILLEGAL immigration?

Luke6_37. We can walk together hand-in-hand proverbially on this issue.

You are confused, because you are starting from the wrong principle, and it is messing up all of your reasoning.

You must begin with the principle that every human is created in the image of God. This means that no matter who they are, where they live, or how they behave, they must be afforded the dignity bestowed upon them by the Creator. Any action on the part of the state that strips or fails to uphold the dignity of the human person must be opposed.

With regard to national borders, they must been seen as arbitrary standards to aid in the regulation of the population. They are not walls designed to keep people out.

Right now, the United States has plenty of wealth and resources to accommodate a tremendous number of social, political and economic refugees, while at the same time has the technology and latent capacity to properly vet those who seek to enter the country. The only immigration crisis that exists is the man-made one fabricated by right-wing nativist & racist propaganda.

So the question we should be trying to answer is how best to welcome the stranger, not how to keep them out.