THE CAFETERIA IS CLOSED at St. John the Baptist School, Cost Mesa CA

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TPJCatholic:
Yin,

You are supposed to take a stand eithe way…you cannot say you are not for or against gay adoption, it is either morally right or morally wrong for gays to adopt.
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Well of course it’s morally wrong.
I know that, and believe that.

In this particular situation, the adoption is a larger issue over which none of us has control.

The Catholic school, however, is a matter that has a definite moral guideline which must be preserved and protected by those charged with that responsibility and that is all Catholics - including me.

So with regard to this particular situation, while I see clearly the adoption shouldn’t have taken place, I recognize that can’t be reversed by a handful of faithful Catholics, particularly if the couple and the legislation supporting the adoption is already in place - with no opening to reverse it or modify the legislation.

I recognize further, that the opportunity to get involved on my part as a faithful Catholic is to support the parents who wrote to the principal. So for this thread I’m focusing on that more than on the adoption issue itself.
 
“The point is not whether he was invited to come and assist with the lessons; the point was that, by admitting his child, the school did not endorse the child’s father’s behavior.”

The children, in this case, are admitted and even now are not being denied admission. The discussion here has been about the involvement of the two so-called male parents in school activities.

The child’s father’s behavior wouldn’t necessarily be known to anyone if the father kept his boyfriend away from the school, which is what the school is now asking him to do.
 
Penny Plain:
Fix, I think we are wasting our time talking to each other. We are never going to agree. I do not see my Church or my God in those who would drive away the imperfect, the flawed, the morally questionable, and the silly. I especially do not see my Church or my God in those who would drive away their children.
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It is not your Church or my Church, but Christ’s Church and no one has said anyone should be driven away from Church. We are talking specfically about Catholic grade school education. The time when children are most impressionable. Why would a parent send their child to a Catholic school if the same type of behavior can be seen at a public school without paying tuition?

You, and others, seem to dismiss scandal and confuse it with private sin. There is a difference and that difference is very important. We all sin, the issue is do we intentionally lead others astray? Catholic school should be sheltered to some degree, that is one reason parents choose it.
I did want to address this one, though. I do intentionally expose my children to “deviant views,” and I do it for their protection.
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I want to be in charge of my childen’s development. When I send my kids to a Catholic school I expect a standard to be maintained and that standard is to be much stricter than a public school. I know that is a strange notion in these times.
They are not going to live in a bubble all their lives. Sooner or later, they will be exposed to homosexuality, drug abuse, heresy, violence, and all that other baddies that are out there.
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So what? Does that imply a Catholic grade school needs to entertain deviant parental behavior?
We do it now. I don’t mean we shoot smack in front of them, but we tell them about drug abuse. We tell them what drugs are. We tell them that people take them because they feel good. We tell them the consequences of drug abuse, and why they shouldn’t do it.
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Huh? Who is doing this in front of them?
They see that our friend and neighbor sometimes slurs his words and cries, or walks funny. We tell them about alcohol, and what it does to people. We answer their questions: “Is Vladi a bad man because he drinks?” “Is Daddy an alcoholic? I saw him drink a beer.” “Can I have a beer?” “What do I do if I see another kid drinking a beer?” “Is Vladi going to be alright?” And so on. If they learn about it in an age-appropriate way when they’re young, they don’t learn about it from peers in college. And they learn to respect Vladi as a man and appreciate the goodness in him, while, at the same time, learning to recognize the harm in his drinking.
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And so on.
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None of that is comparable to chronic exposure of all the kids to someone’s else’s deviant political agenda. That families have problems is not the issue.That two men are publicly making a statement contrary to the natural law and demanding they be accepted as virtuous is much different than the moral vagaries of family life.
 
Penny Plain:
I do not see my Church or my God in those who would drive away the imperfect, the flawed, the morally questionable, and the silly. I especially do not see my Church or my God in those who would drive away their children.
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That’s the heart of the matter, isn’t it?

In 1 Corinthians 5, scripture speaks of a man engaged in a public, illicit sexual relationship and tells the church to drive him out: ‘I… pronounced judgment on the one who has committed this deed, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus: when you have gathered together and I am with you in spirit with the power of the Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.’

We do indeed belong to a Church that would drive out flagrant, unrepentant sinners who persist in immorality. The Christian faith has always been that sort of church. Christ welcomed the humble sinner, but not the proud and unrepentant. He cursed them.

If our communities honor unrepentant sinners who flaunt the teachings of Christ, then we participate in their sin of scandal and help them lead the faithful into damnation.
 
Yin,

The point is, it was lax Catholics who allowed this situation to develop as it has. If Catholics remained rooted in the faith, then gay adoption would never been legalized. However, now that the cat is out of the bag, we Catholics must still fight to right the ship, or else God will right it for us.
 
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fix:
You, and others, seem to dismiss scandal and confuse it with private sin.
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It is true that I am not as fixated on scandal as some appear to be, yes. You’ve certainly got me there. I was taught from an early age to mind my own business and let others mind theirs.
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fix:
None of that is comparable to chronic exposure of all the kids to someone’s else’s deviant political agenda. That families have problems is not the issue.That two men are publicly making a statement contrary to the natural law and demanding they be accepted as virtuous is much different than the moral vagaries of family life.
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“Chronic exposure of all the kids to someone else’s deviant political agenda”? Wow. That’s a mouthful.

You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth, Fix. Now, this is about somebody’s “deviant political agenda.” A few minutes ago, you posted that you’d like to exclude children whose parents were living together or civilly remarried without a decree of nullity. That sounds like the “moral vagaries of family life” to me… What’s the standard?

It sounds to me like you want to raise your children in an Ozzie and Harriet world. I think we all would, if we had the chance. The problem is, though, that we don’t. Ozzie and Harriet were, well, not real. You want the perfect environment for your kids that we all want – where all parents are strong and wise and capable, and all children are happy and beloved.

The problem is that you want to create that environment by driving away the flawed people. You’re so fearful that your own children are going to be contaminated that you forget that the process works both ways. Yes, evil rubs off, but so does good. If there are 500 children in the school who come from perfect Catholic families and two who do not, whose values do you think are more likely to change?

Put down the flamethrower and think for a minute, Fix. How do people become Catholic? They don’t clip an advert in the paper, or sign up for a free Dianetics seminar. They see the value of our Church and the strength and goodness of our God by watching the manifestation of His Church on earth. That’s US. Aren’t you Americans the ones who once welcomed the “wretched refuse of your teeming shores”? That’s what our Church should do. We should welcome the stupid, the lazy, the foolish, and the wicked. We should embrace them as closely as we can – in our church, in our schools, whereever we can – and let them see what Christ’s love does up close and personal.

Can’t do that if we drive them away because we’re afraid of getting our hands dirty.
 
your poll is rigged.

this story is sad.

i feel sorry for the parents and the little boy that they are facing this hateful discremination in this school. They should be treated with charity and prayed for for their conversion. im sorry for them and ashamed of the school. :nope: There is no doubt that homosexuality is wrong wrong wrong. but that poor child is the innocent party, and is being shunned by the school for this sins of his “dads” sad day.
 
Penny Plain:
IThat’s what our Church should do. We should welcome the stupid, the lazy, the foolish, and the wicked. We should embrace them as closely as we can – in our church, in our schools, whereever we can – and let them see what Christ’s love does up close and personal.
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I would submit that by allowing the children to attend the school the Church has done exactly that. Then, quite understandably in my opinion, limits on the behavior of the “dads” had been required in the interest of the other children and families as well as Church teaching. At some point, the “dads” should show some consideration for the beliefs of the Church that they have chosen to affiliate with in one way or another.
 
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TPJCatholic:
Yin,

The point is, it was lax Catholics who allowed this situation to develop as it has. If Catholics remained rooted in the faith, then gay adoption would never been legalized. However, now that the cat is out of the bag, we Catholics must still fight to right the ship, or else God will right it for us.
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I hear ya 👍

I’ll do what I can, when I can.
But I must confess, it’s AOK with me if God rights it for us. I’m begining to thing that part is inevitable anyway as culturally we’ve got way, way overboard.
 
Promotor Fidei:
That’s the heart of the matter, isn’t it?

In 1 Corinthians 5, scripture speaks of a man engaged in a public, illicit sexual relationship and tells the church to drive him out: ‘I… pronounced judgment on the one who has committed this deed, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus: when you have gathered together and I am with you in spirit with the power of the Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.’

We do indeed belong to a Church that would drive out flagrant, unrepentant sinners who persist in immorality. The Christian faith has always been that sort of church. Christ welcomed the humble sinner, but not the proud and unrepentant. He cursed them.

If our communities honor unrepentant sinners who flaunt the teachings of Christ, then we participate in their sin of scandal and help them lead the faithful into damnation.
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Well presented. Thank you. :clapping:
 
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TarAshly:
your poll is rigged.
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She’s right. I can’t believe that even “3” Catholics would support “nuns who oppose catholic doctrine being allowed to teach or run a catholic school”.

🙂
 
Penny Plain:
It is true that I am not as fixated on scandal as some appear to be, yes. You’ve certainly got me there. I was taught from an early age to mind my own business and let others mind theirs.
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Let us define our terms. Here is Fr. Serpa speaking about scandal:
If the couple were a man and a woman who were open about the fact that they were not married, it would be a matter of scandal for the parish to approve such behavior by not challenging it. To give scandal is much more than simply shocking behavior as the dictionary defines it. According to St. Thomas (II-II, Q. liii, a. 1) scandal is a word or action evil in itself, which occasions another’s spiritual ruin.

For the administration of a parish to allow such an open show of defiance of the Church’s moral teaching regarding sexual behavior is not only irresponsible, it is a scandal in itself! Our Lord had some very strong words about one who would scandalize His little ones: “…it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” (Mt 18:6)

As to the attitude that this is the society we live in so we might as well get used to it: what about our Lord’s command that we are to be salt for the earth! He said that if salt looses its ability to be different from that to which it is applied, it is good for nothing and ought to be trampled under foot. We have the world’s only Good News. What a tragedy to water it down!
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You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth, Fix. Now, this is about somebody’s “deviant political agenda.” A few minutes ago, you posted that you’d like to exclude children whose parents were living together or civilly remarried without a decree of nullity. That sounds like the “moral vagaries of family life” to me… What’s the standard?
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I am sorry you are confused. Any scandal is reason to exclude from the Catholic school. Scandal may lead another off the road to salvation. I know fornication is popular and not seen as anything significant, but it is a grave sin. Yes, all those who engage in unrepentant public sin should not be exposed intentionally to our children in Catholic schools. There is no double standard.

My reference to deviant political agenda was to emphasize the true reason these men are acting as they are.
It sounds to me like you want to raise your children in an Ozzie and Harriet world. I think we all would, if we had the chance. The problem is, though, that we don’t. Ozzie and Harriet were, well, not real. You want the perfect environment for your kids that we all want – where all parents are strong and wise and capable, and all children are happy and beloved.
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Nope, I want a Catholic school to act Catholic. Nothing too extreme there.
The problem is that you want to create that environment by driving away the flawed people.
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You have it backward. Their behavior is driving themselves away. We all sin. The difference is that when Catholics sin they admit it, go to confession and try not to do it again. Pop culture says sin is not sin. I will do it my way and you better accept me and my perverted behavior or I will call you intolerant and rigid.
You’re so fearful that your own children are going to be contaminated that you forget that the process works both ways. Yes, evil rubs off, but so does good. If there are 500 children in the school who come from perfect Catholic families and two who do not, whose values do you think are more likely to change?
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You underestimate the attraction of error and evil. I do not experiment with immortal souls. The men in this case can easily resolve the issue by repenting and that may be facilitated my the Catholic authorities in charge refusing to admit the children in their care. Perhaps so-called tough love is what is needed.
They see the value of our Church and the strength and goodness of our God by watching the manifestation of His Church on earth. That’s US. Aren’t you Americans the ones who once welcomed the “wretched refuse of your teeming shores”? That’s what our Church should do. We should welcome the stupid, the lazy, the foolish, and the wicked. We should embrace them as closely as we can – in our church, in our schools, whereever we can – and let them see what Christ’s love does up close and personal.
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The Church does welcome all, but the school need not. The school should have standards. Not all who followed Christ when He walked the earth were faithful. The bible recorded many thousands left Him when He gave the hard sayings. He did not compromise.
Can’t do that if we drive them away because we’re afraid of getting our hands dirty.
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My charge is to get my children to heaven. That means prudence, discernment, love and authentic charity. It does not mean false compassion, false tolerance and lukewarmness.
 
Yin,

I fear it is merely a matter of time before God rights His ship.
 
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Stu:
She’s right. I can’t believe that even “3” Catholics would support “nuns who oppose catholic doctrine being allowed to teach or run a catholic school”.

🙂
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Which is precisely what Bishop Chaput meant when he said, many Catholics are in the pews on Sundays that don’t even realize they aren’t Catholic anymore.
 
Penny Plain:
It
Put down the flamethrower and think for a minute, Fix. How do people become Catholic?
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By accepting the Grace that God offers them and reforming their lives?

Conversion is them personally acting upon the Grace God grants them. Their conversion is enhanced by close adherence to God’s Law, not in it’s disregard.
 
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