Was Jesus a heretic for teaching works salvation?

[OneForTruth]

You are forgetting the young man’s initial question to Jesus:

"What must I do to obtain eternal life?"

The young man is clearly asking about salvation here. Jesus answer to this direct question is:

"if you wish to enter life, keep the commandments"

and

" ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

So that’s it. That’s what the man needs to do to obtain salvation. As the scene plays out, the man reveals that he has done all these things (which, according to Jesus, means he at least has salvation), but is looking for something deeper:

**And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven**: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

“Treasure in heaven”-- not heaven by itself, but by becoming Jesus’ faithful disciple and imitating him in all things (including taking up our Cross) we gain more glory or more honor or more whatever in heaven, in addition to salvation which, we see by the first part of this story, the young man is already able to possess by keeping the commandments.

Read the entire story in it’s complete context and it’s amazing what you’ll find!

Out of context - you are taking one passage out of context. What I have found is that these types of discussions are not beneficial…everyone continues to call eachother out on taking things out of context, but, in order to discuss anything here on this forum, we MUST take things out of context in some way, shape, or form…it is too difficult, in my opinion to have these discussions without going round and round in circles…unless, someone has a way of putting all of the scriptures together in one, comprehensive, all-encompassing posting without others then, pulling their words out of context. This takes the thread on a tailspin in another direction and you end up spending hours trying to fix it from there. By the time you are done, you are pulling your hair out. I find this is what happens.

 

[VociMike]

Out of context - you are taking one passage out of context. What I have found is that these types of discussions are not beneficial…everyone continues to call eachother out on taking things out of context, but, in order to discuss anything here on this forum, we MUST take things out of context in some way, shape, or form…it is too difficult, in my opinion to have these discussions without going round and round in circles…unless, someone has a way of putting all of the scriptures together in one, comprehensive, all-encompassing posting without others then, pulling their words out of context. This takes the thread on a tailspin in another direction and you end up spending hours trying to fix it from there. By the time you are done, you are pulling your hair out. I find this is what happens.

You’ve made a good argument for an infallible teaching Church. Seriously.

 

[Fidelis]

Actually, Romans four is an extension of what Paul lays out in chapter three regarding the righteousness of God through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Can you show me anywhere in Romans the verse that includes “faith ALONE”?

He points out the purpose of the Law, that through it came the knowledge of sin (3:20, such as the Ten Commandments), but completely APART from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe, whether Jew or Gentile (3:21-22).

No argument here.

In 3:23-24 he states that ALL (both Jews and Gentiles) sinned and are falling short of the glory of God, being justified (How?) as a gift by His grace (How? Works of any kind? NO!) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. The power of the cross.

Sorry, this is where you go wrong. The subject at hand for St. Paul in Romans 4 is works of the Law. No use arguing about it; anyone can read it for themselves. As I’ve said before, the extrapolation of this into “works of any kind” is a Protestant invention to support the man-made theology of Sola Fide.

Paul, in Romans four, cites two men: Abraham and David. One lived long before the Law existed and the other born under it. BOTH were justified through FAITH alone.

Again, I don’t see the word ALONE in the text–do you?

Rom. 4:5 "But to the one who does not work but BELIEVES IN HIM who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH is reckoned to him as righteousness"Divinely justified by faith totally apart from works is a continuous teaching by Paul in his letters. It’s at the heart of his theology. It’s the core of his gospel message to the churches

If it was such a core teaching of Paul, then it should be easy to find words to that effect (i.e. alone)in his writings (which we don’t), not to mention the fact that we find several dozen places in his writing that contradict any form of Sola Fide. These I’ve provided in detail in an earlier post, apparently falling upon blind eyes.

If you fail to understand what he’s teaching in Romans three and four, apophasis, you never understand him at all.

Got it? Stop perverting it.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Got it? Stop perverting it.

Well said.

There is no way around this, being faced with the Truth. Of course some people will try the old bait and switch argument tactic to avoid coming to grips with Truth by bringing up another. Or the argument that one new testament writer is more important than the rest. Let’s see what happens.

 

[OneForTruth]

You’ve made a good argument for an infallible teaching Church. Seriously.

Not really. My point is that this form of communication is not conducive to being able to answer this type of question. Romans teaches faith alone…the question is, “Are you willing to see it??” James teaches that saving faith (which is a gift of God) produces works. The problem is that many like to take that last half of James 2:24 out of context…

James 2:24 NAS95 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Myself…I would like to take James 2:14 out of context…

James 2:14 NAS95 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can **that faith **save him?

 

[VociMike]

Not really. My point is that this form of communication is not conducive to being able to answer this type of question. Romans teaches faith alone…the question is, “Are you willing to see it??”

Doesn’t it bother you that most Christians throughout history, and most Christians today (it’s true, look up the figures), don’t see Romans “your way”? You are claiming for yourself a rather extraordinary superiority of understanding over most of your fellow Christians. How do you justify your claimed superiority over your brethren?

 

[OneForTruth]

Doesn’t it bother you that most Christians throughout history, and most Christians today (it’s true, look up the figures), don’t see Romans “your way”? You are claiming for yourself a rather extraordinary superiority of understanding over most of your fellow Christians. How do you justify your claimed superiority over your brethren?

Please do not act as though I am alone in what I am believing. And, no it does not bother me. It is crystal clear in Romans what “justification” is and what the basis for it is. WILL you see it?

By the way, I thought that the CC does not teach “works salvation”.

 

[OneForTruth]

Does it interest you that 100% of Catholics that I meet at their doors claim salvation by their own good deeds?

Does it interest you that they do not claim the cross for salvation but their works and that they are stunned to find out that you cannot earn salvation? It is the fruit of the doctrinal teaching…it is very confused, to be totally honest.

 

[VociMike]

Please do not act as though I am alone in what I am believing. And, no it does not bother me. It is crystal clear in Romans what “justification” is and what the basis for it is. WILL you see it?

If you re-read my post you will see that I never said you were alone. I said that you were in a distinct minority, both throughout Christian history and even today (faith-alone believers are still a distinct minority of Christians to this very day). So when you ask “WILL you see it?” you are saying to most of the Christian world that you (the distinct minority just mentioned) have some extraordinary ability to see what other Christians cannot see, and have not been able to see over the past 2000 years. That is a claim of superiority, and I’m wondering how it is that you feel justified in making such a claim.

By the way, I thought that the CC does not teach “works salvation”.

The question at hand is not “works salvation”. The question is “faith alone”. Is it your misunderstanding that the only alternative to “faith alone” is “works salvation”?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

By the way, I thought that the CC does not teach “works salvation”.

Does the Catholic Church teach “works salvation”?

 

[VociMike]

Does it interest you that 100% of Catholics that I meet at their doors claim salvation by their own good deeds?

Does it interest you that they do not claim the cross for salvation but their works and that they are stunned to find out that you cannot earn salvation? It is the fruit of the doctrinal teaching…it is very confused, to be totally honest.

It is indeed interesting that the only Catholics you ever meet are misinformed, and not just misinformed, but all misinformed in exactly the same way, like iron filing in a strong magnetic field. A veritable conspiracy of misinformation, one might say. But all your alleged anecdotal evidence is as nothing compared to the constant and authoritative teaching of the Church.

 

[Fidelis]

Does the Catholic Church teach “works salvation”?

No, the Catholic Church does not teach that works apart from faith and God’s grace can acheive salvation.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the official teaching of the Church:

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”

**2005 **Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits”- reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied:

*‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’" *

 

[OneForTruth]

It is indeed interesting that the only Catholics you ever meet are misinformed, and not just misinformed, but all misinformed in exactly the same way, like iron filing in a strong magnetic field. A veritable conspiracy of misinformation, one might say. But all your alleged anecdotal evidence is as nothing compared to the constant and authoritative teaching of the Church.

It would bother me. Have a great day.

 

[dcdurel]

I did not deny that Jesus says we need faith, and that we need grace to enter heaven. The Church has always taught that.

My question still remains.

Since Jesus said, “if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments”, then is He considered a heretic for ALSO teaching what Protestants call “works salvation”?

OR

I know Jesus says we need faith. I know Jesus says we are saved by grace. I don’t deny that. The Church has always taught that.

So I recognize that Protestantism accepts these teachings of Jesus on faith and grace.

BUT, Jesus also said about keeping the two greatest commandments,
“Do this and you will live”
Luke 10:28

Is He considered to have taught a false Gospel?

Why can’t I get a straight answer?

Is Jesus wrong or not?
If Jesus is not wrong, then how can the Catholic Church be wrong for teaching the exact same thing.

 

[OneForTruth]

I did not deny that Jesus says we need faith, and that we need grace to enter heaven. The Church has always taught that.

My question still remains.

Since Jesus said, “if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments”, then is He considered a heretic for ALSO teaching what Protestants call “works salvation”?

OR

I know Jesus says we need faith. I know Jesus says we are saved by grace. I don’t deny that. The Church has always taught that.

So I recognize that Protestantism accepts these teachings of Jesus on faith and grace.

BUT, Jesus also said about keeping the two greatest commandments,
“Do this and you will live”
Luke 10:28

Is He considered to have taught a false Gospel?

Why can’t I get a straight answer?

Is Jesus wrong or not?
If Jesus is not wrong, then how can the Catholic Church be wrong for teaching the exact same thing.

I will not give any further reply than this…“Do and live” is the promise of the law. But since no sinner can obey perfectly, the impossible demands of the law are meant to drive us to seek divine mercy (Gal. 3:10–13, 22–25). This man should have responded with a confession of his own guilt, rather than self-justification…same in Mat 19 with the rich young ruler. In both cases, they sought to justify themselves…hence my posting #87.

 

[geezerbob]

I will not give any further reply than this…“Do and live” is the promise of the law. But since no sinner can obey perfectly, the impossible demands of the law are meant to drive us to seek divine mercy (Gal. 3:10–13, 22–25). This man should have responded with a confession of his own guilt, rather than self-justification…same in Mat 19 with the rich young ruler. In both cases, they sought to justify themselves…hence my posting #87.

You seem to be making an “either/or” argument here when the two are not mutually exclusive. Jesus gives us some pretty clear instructions in the parable of the sheep and the goats on what we are to do as well as the promise of a reward if we obey and eternal punishment if we don’t. Since, as imperfect humans, our obedience can never be good enough, we have to do the best we can and trust in His mercy on judgment day. In short, that means and, not either/or.

 

[kaycee]

You seem to be making an “either/or” argument here when the two are not mutually exclusive. Jesus gives us some pretty clear instructions in the parable of the sheep and the goats on what we are to do as well as the promise of a reward if we obey and eternal punishment if we don’t. Since, as imperfect humans, our obedience can never be good enough, we have to do the best we can and trust in His mercy on judgment day. In short, that means and, not either/or.

John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, **“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” **

Your recipe is a works salvation. “we have to do the best we can”

 

[VociMike]

John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, **“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” **

Does this mean that you believe that you (not the thief on the cross, not a deathbed convert, but you) can enter heaven without the slightest effort to obey God’s commandments?

 

[kaycee]

Does this mean that you believe that you (not the thief on the cross, not a deathbed convert, but you) can enter heaven without the slightest effort to obey God’s commandments?

Certainly Not! Those who are saved will obey and produce fruit. But its not the obeying that saves.
Did’nt Judas obey?

I think the Catholic sees the word Faith and thinks its only academic knowledge. Is that your understanding?

 

[VociMike]

Certainly Not! Those who are saved will obey and produce fruit. But its not the obeying that saves.
Did’nt Judas obey?

But I’m not asking about the obeying. I’m asking about the disobeying. Not the same thing.

So let me make sure I understand you clearly. You say that one who makes no effort to obey God’s commandments cannot enter the kingdom of God, right? Or to put it another way, one must make an effort to obey God’s commandments in order to enter the kingdom of God. Am I right?

I think the Catholic sees the word Faith and thinks its only academic knowledge. Is that your understanding?

Definitely not.